Peace to you OWH. I did not bring my quote over with this one because it was too long, but many points were made in that, but are not being carried over. So, continuing...
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Replying to post 86 by onewithhim]
You say, "Smoke in the lungs does not make a person unclean." Would you call someone who didn't ever bathe & wash his hair "unclean"? I think we all would.
Physically, sure.
Spiritually, absolutely NOT.
Anyone looking at an ashtray would have a hard time saying that it was clean. People who have died from diseases directly associated with tobacco and have been autopsied, have been shown to have blackened, damaged lungs. No one can really say that this is NOT "unclean."
Physically, that would be correct.
But not spiritually.
Otherwise disease would mean that a person is unclean SPIRITUALLY as well, but it doesn't mean that. Yes?
You say that "the body is not who we truly are." Then who IS our body? Someone else? God created Adam and Eve to live in physical bodies, on this planet FOREVER. If they had not sinned, at what point would they have gone to heaven?
Of course the body is not who we truly are. My body can be diseased and unclean, but that does not mean that the person I am is diseased and unclean. My spirit, the person I truly am. Cut off my leg, and I have not become less ME.
The flesh counts for nothing.
The BODY that is the TEMPLE is the BODY OF CHRIST. (which we are part of if we are part of Christ - His Church; His Body; His Bride)
Not this flesh and blood that has sin and death in it.
Do you suggest that I and my spiritual brothers and sisters here do not profess faith?
No, why would you ask that?
We DO profess faith, and we know that our bodies are part of our identity here in this physical realm which God has placed humans in.
Well, my (physical) body (this flesh with its blood) is not part of my identity. Maybe to the world, that judges according to sight (same as the Adversary, btw)
God sees what is within, however, to the person that we truly are. INSIDE.
We can know this because Christ did not care about the physical appearance or disease of the flesh (the way that men in this world cared about then, and still care about now).
He and God care about what is inside.
The world (and you know who the god of this world is) is what cares about appearance, physical (outer cleanliness) even to the point of drawing back from the physically unclean (homeless, drunks, diseased, etc). Christ did exactly the opposite of that.
Taking on the appearance of cleanliness while being unclean in the spirit is what Christ spoke of with regard to white washed tombs that were full of dead men's bones.
When Jesus rules over the earth, all people will actually be YOUNG AGAIN, and that is something Job saw in the future for humans. Why would he say that if everybody was going to have a spirit body in heaven?
A spirit body - like one that the angels have - is still a body. And like the angels, can move in between the spiritual and physical realms. This is what Adam and Eve could do before being barred from the spiritual realm (the garden of Eden) and given the long garment of skin (THIS body with sin and death in it).
This is what we will be able to do AGAIN, with the white robe (spirit body with no sin or death in it).
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
"Let his [a man's] flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor." (Job 33:25)
FRESHER than in youth. So better than. And as for the vigor that he had in youth, why not? No sin or death in the spirit body; so no disease, no ailments, no fatigue, etc.
Job spoke about the Resurrection, and how humans will come back from the grave and be just like God made them to be, originally. (Job 14:1,10-15)
Originally, as in with no sin or death, yes.
You say that if we were capable of becoming clean on our own then Christ died for nothing. You are confusing SPIRITUAL cleanliness with physical cleanliness.
No. You are emphasizing physical cleanliness OVER spiritual cleanliness. But as Christ said,
The flesh counts for nothing.
But because of Christ we can be free of the curse of Adamic sin. That doesn't give us carte blanche to do whatever we feel like doing. We must do our best to imitate Christ. I and others here have presented many verses to show that what we DO is very important. Perhaps you can review these scriptures.
I'm fairly certain that there is NO scripture or command from Christ that says, you can't come to me unless you first stop smoking. Ew, yucky, unclean...
It was the people who thought that THEY were clean, while others were not clean, who were TRULY unclean.
Yes?
You denigrate the Watch Tower Society for teaching what Paul wrote in Acts.
Paul did not write that, and I have nothing more to say on the blood issue than what I already said.
Or rather, with what God said:
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
And people HAVE been sacrificed because of the WTS ban on blood transfusion. It does not matter if modern advances has made alternatives safe or even safer. Not if even one person was sacrificed rather than shown mercy.
What are the rules and "decree upon decree" that the WTS supposedly lays on its people?
Don't smoke is a prime example. Don't grow a beard (unless you live in a culture where that is the norm). Wear certain clothes (appropriate to your culture). Don't watch movies like Harry Potter. Don't listen to certain kinds of music. Put in so many hours of field service and report those hours. Shun even your own flesh and blood if they are disfellowshipped...
to the extent that they have control over the situation. (Obviously people can't control the air they breathe that is tainted by exhaust fumes, etc..) If someone chooses to keep smoking or defrauding or having illicit sex, then that is their choice and they have no one to blame but themselves.
You are ADDING smoking to the things that Christ said.
That is what I mean by the WTS ADDING rule upon rule.
And people CAN stop adding exhaust fumes to the environment, by ceasing to drive vehicles that emit those fumes.
It is the same logic as the person who said smoking causes second hand smoke that is harmful to others.
Christ, who has been guiding his church, DOES require that his followers be clean, as Paul clearly stated,
Clean IN THE SPIRIT.
The whole argument with the Pharisees is that they asked why the men ate with 'unclean hands' and CHRIST said that it is not what goes into a man that makes Him unclean, but what comes OUT Of a man (out of his heart)
and has been quoted here ad nauseum. If anyone wants to quit a bad habit, he will have a lot of help from the Christian congregation. It can be done. The ONLY reason I quit overnight was because of this:
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from ALL defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2Corinth.7:1, NASB)
Good, I am glad for you.
But we cannot be clean from every defilement of the flesh. So I would suggest that either Paul did not mean what you think he meant. Or the translation is in error. Or Paul was in error.
I will follow Christ, however.
Someone else smoking is none of my business.
I don't think Phillip first asked the Ethiopian Eunuch if he smoked (or did anything that was a 'defilement' of the flesh; or made him do a bible study first) before baptizing the man. Same with Cornelius and his loved ones.
If someone is seeking Christ then we should not make it harder for them to come to Him.
HE will take care of the rest of their training; if indeed the baptism was true (and of holy spirit FROM Christ) and so has real power because the One giving it is truly alive and speaking.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
