The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

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The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:


PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.
That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #311

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote: So unless Jesus is reckoned to be somehow "mistaken," the Holy Spirit is another living being -- person -- ....
#QUESTION What about the texts, such as John14:16,17* that seem to attribute human characteristicsand actions to the holy spirit?

* See (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13, John 15:26, John 16:13,)
  • By far the majority of texts the holy spirit is portrayed in an impersonal manner, for example believers are urged to be "filled with holy spirit" (120 disciples are spoken of as being filled with holy spirit at the same time at Pentecost) and compares it to water and faith and knowledge, presenting it as an impersonal force that moves people to action. On occassion the bible "personifies" qualities or inanimate objects to highlight certain aspects of these things. For example the Bible also personifies wisdom, death, and sin. (Proverbs 1:20; Romans 5:17, 21). Wisdom is said to have “children,â€� and sin is depicted as seducing, killing, and working out covetousness (compare Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:35; Romans 7:8, 11). So just as wisdom is spoken of on one occassion as "a woman" doesn't mean that a wise person has a woman living inside them, the fact that God's spirit is spoken of as "teaching" doesn't mean that it is a Professor that will be inserted in the bodies of believers.
    a. Wisdom is said to have children - Luke 7:35

    b. Sin and death are kings Romans 5:14, 21

    c. Sin is a demon crouching at the door At Genesis 4:7 (NEB)

    d. the water and the blood can "witnesses" 1 John 5:6-8

    e. Blood can speak (calling for Justice) Genesis 4:10
    The bible uses these and other word pictures that should not be taken literally as a literary devices. For example God is spoken of as "a rock" but this doesn't mean God two persons in one (God the Father, God the Rock). Jesus spoke of himself as bread and a door, this doesn't mean he is three person's in one, God the bread, God the Son and God the Holy Door.

    That we can "grieve" the holy spirit, lose it or request simply reflects it is an extension of the person of God, (like a finger or an arm is on a human)which never acts independently as a separate person but is rather directed or withdrawn as God directs. Obviously this personification is not to be taken literally to mean the above are people. In a similar way the personification of the Holy Spirit is not to be taken to mean literally it is a person.



#QUESTION How does the holy spirit "speak" Romans 8:26?
  • Just as in the expression "a picture says a thousand words" we are not to understand that the holy spirit literally speak. However it is the force by which God enables his message to be conveyed and understood. The action of the spirit in such instances is like that of radio waves transmitting messages from one person to another far away.


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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #312

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote:So God got it wrong?
Nope. Invariably, we can only blame ourselves for any misunderstanding...

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #313

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to post 307 by JehovahsWitness]

Jesus said:
  • “I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to youâ€� (John 16:7).
The Greek word translated here as “Helper� is parakletos. In its technical form, it has a legal dimension; it refers to one who would be an advocate. In its wider context, it speaks of comfort, of protection, of counsel, and of guidance. Jesus also spoke of the Spirit as the Helper in John 14 and introduced Him as “the Spirit of truth� (14:17; 16:13).

First, the Holy Spirit is a unique person and not simply a power or an influence. He is spoken of as “He,� not as “it.� The Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity, is personal. As a person, He may be grieved (Eph. 4:30), He may be quenched in terms of the exercise of His will (1 Thess. 5:19), and He may be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Second, the Holy Spirit is one both with the Father and with the Son. In theological terms, He is both co-equal and co-eternal. In reading the whole Upper Room Discourse, it is clearly evident that it was both the Father and the Son who would send the Spirit (John 14:16; 16:7), and the Spirit came and acted, as it were, for both of Them. So the activity of the Spirit is never given in Scripture in isolation from the person and work of Christ or in isolation from the eternal will of the Father. Any endeavor to think of the Spirit in terms that are entirely mystical and divorced from Scripture lead down all kinds of side streets and eventually to dead ends.

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation. In the account of creation at the very beginning of the Bible, we are told: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters� (Gen. 1:1-2). In reading Genesis 1, it is not difficult to see that we have in the second verse, certainly in light of all that has subsequently been revealed, a clear and distinct reference to the third person of the Trinity. And if we recognize the divine Spirit in Genesis 1:2, that provides what some refer to as the missing link in Genesis 1:26, where God said, “Let us make man in our image.� This is a clear antecedent reference to the Spirit of God who is at work in Genesis 1:1-2.

Fourth, the Holy Spirit is the agent not only of creation, but also of God’s new creation in Christ. He is the author of the new birth. This is clear in John 3, in the classic encounter between Jesus and Nicodemus, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God� (v. 5). This truth, of course, is worked out in the rest of the Scriptures.

Fifth, the Spirit is the author of the Scriptures. Second Timothy 3:16 famously says, “All Scripture is breathed out by God...� The Greek word behind this phrase is theopneustos, which means “God-breathed.� In creation, the Spirit breathes His energy, releasing the power of God in the act of creation. The same thing occurs in the act of redemption, and it occurs again in the divine act of giving to man the record in the Scriptures themselves. The doctrine of inspiration is entirely related to the work of God the Holy Spirit. Peter affirms this view, writing, “No prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit� (2 Peter 1:21). The men who wrote the biblical books were not inventing things. Neither were they automatons. “They were real people in real historical times with real DNA writing according to their historical settings and their personalities. But the authorship of Scripture was dual. It was, for instance, both Jeremiah and God the Holy Spirit, because Jeremiah was picked up and carried along. Indeed, in Jeremiah’s case, God said, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth� (1:9). He did so without violating Jeremiah’s distinct personality, and he then wrote the very Word of God. This is why we study the Bible -- because this is a book that exists as a result of the out-breathing of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning the identity of the Helper, His identity is as “another Helper.� The word translated as “another� here is allos, not heteros. Jesus promised a Helper of the same kind rather than of a different kind. The Spirit is the parakletos, the one who comes alongside. Jesus said He would “be with you forever... He dwells with you and will be in you� (John 14:16-17). In other words, His ministry is both permanent and personal.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #314

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
  • Just as in the expression "a picture says a thousand words" we are not to understand that the holy spirit literally speak. However it is the force by which God enables his message to be conveyed and understood.
There may be some other things here that we would come close to agreeing on, but this is one. Yes, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- is God's power/force personified, and as such is the Agent by which God's message is conveyed (from God the Father, via God the Holy Spirit) and understood (by the receiver, which happens only if God the Holy Spirit is at work in him/her).

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #315

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote:
There may be some other things here that we would come close to agreeing on, but this is one. Yes, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- is God's power/force personified ...

So you admit the holy spirit is indeed a force /a power?
PERSONIFY

- represent (a quality or concept) by a figure in human form [...] attribute a personal nature or human characteristics to (something non-human). Example "in the poem the oak trees are personified"

- represent or embody (a quality, concept, etc.) in a physical form. Example: "the car personified motoring fun for two decades"
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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #316

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
PinSeeker wrote:
There may be some other things here that we would come close to agreeing on, but this is one. Yes, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- is God's power/force personified ...

So you admit the holy spirit is indeed a force /a power?
I'll allow that in the sense that, for example, any great athlete is a "force" in his/her sport of choice.

I "admit" -- assert -- that the Holy Spirit is the personal embodiment of God's power and the Agent of its exertion. As such, He is the Third Person of the Godhead, separate and distinct from (but also one with) God the Father and God the Son. Again, Jesus is crystal clear about that in John 14.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #317

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 312 by PinSeeker]

You originally used the word "personified", do you retract that?


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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #318

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: You originally used the word "personified", do you retract that?
Does not the verb 'personified' mean to you 'the personification of'? So, in this case, God's power being made into a personal Agent of God's power, separate from God the Father Himself? So no, I don't retract anything.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #319

Post by William »

@314


PinSeeker: There may be some other things here that we would come close to agreeing on, but this is one. Yes, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- is God's power/force personified ...

JehovahsWitness: So you admit the holy spirit is indeed a force /a power?

William: My own understanding of The Holy GHOST is that - in relation to the PU (Earth) - it is the sum total of all human experience ever.
It is therefore 'personified' through that connection and represents - as a Personality - the response of everything which Human Beings are collectively involved within.
The 'OverSoul' of Humanity, personified within that field of Consciousness.

However, at the MU (Heaven) level of experience, this translates to "a disturbance in The Force" of the MU. There has been a noticeable change in the field configuration of the MU - like a stone cast into a lake - a ripple effect..most notable the closer one seeks out its source.

The Data of Experience of Humanity in the PU (Earth) is that which caused the disturbance on a small corner branch of the MU. (Heaven)

The Holy Ghost is the both The Messenger AND The Medium in which The Message is delivered and is not referred to as a "Ghost" for any other reason than to Personify Her within the Mind of Humanity.

We must always speak to The Lady with great respect.

She is The One Who moved The Waters of The Deep and we were created from that Ripple Effect and She is equal to the task of presenting US to Her Kind, of the MU.

Some are duly impressed, while Others are unsure, and still Others are panicking...that is the nature of the differential when something new is introduced...the 'something new' being - what She brought into Heaven for 'inspection'.

The Holy Ghost - SHe - is well pleased with Her Creation and knows that they will do well in their New Homes...once Everyone involved settles down and gets with the Program.

We literally do live in hope, but some of US - perhaps all of US - require New Homes in which to settle...and continue to sort things out...in hopefulness...

WE are simply The Holy Ghost Learning That, from OUR shared perspective inside that which She initiated through contact...

Far as I can tell, anyway....



:study:

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #320

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote: Yes, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- is God's power/force personified ...


So God's SPIRIT is a force represented (presented) as if it is a person; it isn't a person any more than personifying your car and calling it "she" means your car can have your baby, its a linguistic tool imposed on something to highlight certain characteristics or functions.

PERSONIFY

- represent (a quality or concept) by a figure in human form [...] attribute a personal nature or human characteristics to (something non-human).
Thus when the holy spirit is spoken of as having "a personal nature" (speaking, teaching, being grieved ect...), it is being represented as such, but it is in reality "a force" (which by definition is impersonal).



Good day to you,




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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