What is the Biblical view of hell?

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otseng
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What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.
Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

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Post #21

Post by William »

@

JehovahsWitness: The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function.

otseng: the Bible does teach survival after a person dies. Here's some verses:
Saul summoned the spirit of Samuel with the witch at Endor.


Samuel: I said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.


otseng: Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luke: And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

William: Jesus spent a great deal of time instructing his Disciples regarding the Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Metaphysical Universe is knowable and can be experienced to some degree by the individual. It is not that humans are locked out or forbidden entry, but rather that our beliefs shape the way we choose to do things and for many, fear has replaced trust, as certainly as a book has replaced The Word of GOD (Jesus).

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Post #22

Post by William »

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shnarkle: It's against God's commandments to summon familiar spirits, or to inquire from a witch. To think that Samuel would do something like this is ridiculous. To think that Samuel's spirit would be summoned by a witch is even more so.

A familiar spirit is referred to as a familiar spirit because they impersonate those who have died. They seem familiar, but they aren't who they seem to be.


William:Do you have documentation about the claims you make regarding 'what are familiar Spirits'?
What is it you are referring to as "Samuel's spirit"?
Where is it that you think Samuel's spirit resides?
What do you think "The knowledge of the Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven" are, which Jesus taught his disciple about behind closed doors?

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Post #23

Post by ttruscott »

otseng wrote: It has a range of meaning from a physical grave
I am partial to the Hebrew word studies that suggest that the word kefer the grave is never to be conflated with Sheol.

F. 20 reasons why sheol is not the grave: http://www.bible.ca/su-hades.htm
Even if the word sheol did refer to a literal grave so what! The word "spirit" sometimes refers to literal wind or breath, but most time the word is used, it cannot refer to wind or breath. So too, the vast majority of uses of Sheol/Hades cannot refer to the grave.

(Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 76,77)

- While the kabar (to bury) is used in connection with kever it is never used in connection with Sheol. We can bury someone in a grave but we cannot bury anyone in Sheol (Gen. 23:4, 6, 9,19, 20; 49:30, 31, etc.).

- While kever is found in its plural form "graves" (Ex. 14:11), the word Sheol is never pluralized.

- While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

- While we can purchase or sell a grave (Gen. 23:4-20), Scripture never speaks of Sheol being purchased or sold.

- While we can own a grave as personal property (Gen. 23:4-20), nowhere in scripture is Sheol owned by man.

- While we can discriminate between graves and pick the "choicest site" (Gen. 23:6), nowhere in Scripture is a "choice" Sheol pitted against a "poor" Sheol.

- While we can drop a dead body into a grave (Gen. 50:13), no one can drop anyone into Sheol.

- While we can erect a monument over a grave (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never spoken of as having monuments.

- While we can, with ease, open or close a grave (2 Kings 23:16), Sheol is never opened or closed by man.

- While we can touch a grave (Num. 19:18), no one is ever said in Scripture to touch Sheol.

- While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol.

- While we can enter and leave a tomb or grave (2 Kings 23:16), no one is ever said to enter and then leave Sheol.

- While we can choose the site of our own grave (Gen. 23:4-9), Sheol is never spoken of as something we can pick and choose.

- While we can remove or uncover the bodies or bones in a grave (2 Kings 23:16), the Scriptures never speak of man removing or uncovering anything in Sheol.

- While we can beautify a grave with ornate carvings or pictures (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never beautified by man.

- While graves can be robbed or defiled (Jer. 8:1,2), Sheol is never spoken of as being robbed or defiled by man.

- While a grave can be destroyed by man (Jer. 8:1,2), nowhere in Scripture is man said to be able to destroy Sheol.

- While a grave can be full, Sheol is never full (Prov. 27:20).

- While we can see a grave, Sheol is always invisible.

- While we can visit the graves of loved ones, nowhere in Scripture is man said to visit Sheol.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #24

Post by shnarkle »

ttruscott wrote: The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.[/color] which implies they came from there to live ON the earth, sown into mankind by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. That some interpretations of the bible try to hide this fact of their RETURN is immaterial, the word means return.
The return echoes Genesis where God informs Adam that he was formed from the earth and to the earth he will return.

Here again, I can't help see that it is Adam's body that is formed from the earth and returns to the earth, but is this really who Adam is? I don't think so. I think Adam is having an identity crises. He thinks he is separate from God, but he is the very image of God. I think the fall is simply this false identity which necessarily dies along with the body.

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Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

QUESTION: Does SHEOL refer to a literal individual grave (tomb) where a body is buried?

♦ANSWER No, it refers to the condition all living creature end up in, the symbolic common grave of mankind.
In the Hebrew Scriptures the words qeʹver (“burial place�; Ge 23:4) and qevu·rahʹ (“grave�; Ge 35:20) are distinct in meaning from the Hebrew sheʼohlʹ, which refers, not to an individual grave or graves, but to the common grave of mankind, gravedom. Likewise, in the Christian Greek Scriptures the Greek word taʹphos (“grave�; Mt 27:61) and the words mneʹma (“tomb�; Mr 15:46) and mne·meiʹon (“memorial tomb�; Lu 23:55) are distinct from the word haiʹdes, the Greek equivalent of sheʼohlʹ.​
Source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000842#h=16

“It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by ‘the grave’ or ‘the pit’. . . . meaning the state of the dead in general.� - A Dictionary of the Bible (1914), edited by William Smith

“In a sense, ‘the grave’ in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . .�—A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978 Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida p. 37

"Sheol was for a very long time only a magnified grave, into which all the dead, bad and good alike, prince and peasant, went." - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

"abode of the dead," the "underworld," "the common grave of mankind" or "pit." It is said to be the destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as described in Book of Job (3:11-19)" - The New Wrld Encyclopedia



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Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

otseng wrote: ..Sheol, it can refer to a literal physical grave ...
Can you provide a text where you believe this to be the case?


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Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

otseng wrote:
Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
It was a vision, an optical illusion, Moses and Elijah were not literally there, it just looked as if they were ...
Jesus commands: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.�​—Matthew 17:9.


http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 921#943921
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Romans 14:8

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Post #28

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote:
Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
It was a vision, an optical illusion, Moses and Elijah were not literally there, it just looked as if they were ...
Jesus commands: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.�​—Matthew 17:9.
There are a great many instances of visions in the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments. Some -- but certainly not all -- were dreams. But exactly none were "illusions." Just because something is described as a "vision" does not necessarily mean it was not a historical event. In many of them people and/or angels appear and disappear/vanish, but they were really there. Some were used by God to give the receivers insights into future events. None were "optical illusions." Many -- this one included -- were actual events.

In Matthew 17, Verse 4 -- where Peter offers to build three tabernacles, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah -- speaks to the concreteness of this event. This event is also described by Luke (chapter 9), and he is even more explicit, saying that Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep but had become fully awake by before witnessing Jesus in His glory and the two men standing with Him (Moses and Elijah). Mark is very explicit, also (chapter 9). Moses and Elijah were indeed there with Jesus for a short time. It was no "illusion." It was an historical event.

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Post #29

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I'm going to break the rules a bit (apologies) and post R.C. Sproul's excellent essay on what the Biblical view of hell is:

WHAT IS HELL?
R.C. Sproul
June 20, 2014
https://www.ligonier.org/blog/hell/

We have often heard statements such as “War is hell� or “I went through hell.� These expressions are, of course, not taken literally. Rather, they reflect our tendency to use the word hell as a descriptive term for the most ghastly human experience possible. Yet no human experience in this world is actually comparable to hell. If we try to imagine the worst of all possible suffering in the here and now we have not yet stretched our imaginations to reach the dreadful reality of hell.

Hell is trivialized when it is used as a common curse word. To use the word lightly may be a halfhearted human attempt to take the concept lightly or to treat it in an amusing way. We tend to joke about things most frightening to us in a futile effort to declaw and defang them, reducing their threatening power.

There is no biblical concept more grim or terror-invoking than the idea of hell. It is so unpopular with us that few would give credence to it at all except that it comes to us from the teaching of Christ Himself.

Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus. It is this doctrine, perhaps more than any other, that strains even the Christian’s loyalty to the teaching of Christ. Modern Christians have pushed the limits of minimizing hell in an effort to sidestep or soften Jesus’ own teaching. The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die. These graphic images of eternal punishment provoke the question, should we take these descriptions literally or are they merely symbols?

I suspect they are symbols, but I find no relief in that. We must not think of them as being merely symbols. It is probably that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal abode to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image. If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain. That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols.

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.� To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

No matter how we analyze the concept of hell it often sounds to us as a place of cruel and unusual punishment. If, however, we can take any comfort in the concept of hell, we can take it in the full assurance that there will be no cruelty there. It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. Cruelty in this sense is unjust. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

Perhaps the most frightening aspect of hell is its eternality. People can endure the greatest agony if they know it will ultimately stop. In hell there is no such hope. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. Mere annihilation, which some have lobbied for, involves no pain. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, “Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God.�

Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief. Understanding this is crucial to our drive to appreciate the work of Christ and to preach His gospel.

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Post #30

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote: ..Sheol, it can refer to a literal physical grave ...
Can you provide a text where you believe this to be the case?
I'm surprised so many people want to debate this. Even if it does not refer to a physical grave, it's not that important. I don't see how it alters what the view of hell would be.

But, anyways, I believe it refers to a physical grave because translators sometimes use the word "grave", not "hell", for Sheol. If translaters believe Sheol referred to the spiritual location, they would use hell. If they believed it referred to the physical location, they would use grave. If Sheol always referred to the spiritual, why even translate it to grave?

Even more important is when Sheol does refer to hell, I don't believe it should always be interpreted literally. Sometimes it can be, but not all the time. For example,

[Pro 23:13-14 KJV] 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol).

Should we interpret this to mean disciplining a child would prevent him from literally going to hell? I see it more as an expression. Just like if someone tells me to "go to hell", it's not that he's literally commanding me to go to hell, but it's more expressing his feelings in an idiom that we all understand.

Another example,

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Was David literally in hell? No, rather it's an expression to describe the level of grief that David felt.

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