JESUS IS NOT GOD

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onewithhim
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JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #341

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #340]

So why to you not accept Jesus as your God? Scripture clearly says He is our God. Jesus was made our God, Creator and Father by the "will" and power of God the Father. With your doctrines, you are denying who Jesus is.

Scripture says that no man comes to the Father except by Christ. Jesus is everything to mankind. Without Him, we would not have been created nor would we have a pathway to the Father. Christ is not the originator of His position, God the Father is, but nonetheless, Christ is mankind's God by the power of the Father. God the Father only interacts with mankind THROUGH Christ. You can't go to the Father unless you go through Jesus.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

There probably is no use in continuing this discussion. I don't know of any other ways to try and help you understand that Jesus is mankind's God who represents God the Father who is greater than all.

If you want to continue on the EARTH thread, I am willing. But unless you can understand that the Word of God is spiritual and not literal, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on that debate either.
Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #342

Post by onewithhim »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:01 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #340]

So why to you not accept Jesus as your God? Scripture clearly says He is our God. Jesus was made our God, Creator and Father by the "will" and power of God the Father. With your doctrines, you are denying who Jesus is.

Scripture says that no man comes to the Father except by Christ. Jesus is everything to mankind. Without Him, we would not have been created nor would we have a pathway to the Father. Christ is not the originator of His position, God the Father is, but nonetheless, Christ is mankind's God by the power of the Father. God the Father only interacts with mankind THROUGH Christ. You can't go to the Father unless you go through Jesus.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

There probably is no use in continuing this discussion. I don't know of any other ways to try and help you understand that Jesus is mankind's God who represents God the Father who is greater than all.

If you want to continue on the EARTH thread, I am willing. But unless you can understand that the Word of God is spiritual and not literal, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on that debate either.
Joe
It is you who don't understand what I am saying. I agree, we will never see eye to eye.

.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #343

Post by tigger 2 »

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #341]

Isaiah 9:6
We may understand the words which make up the name at Is. 9:6 to be in the lower sense. For instance, "Mighty God" could be understood as "a mighty god."

There is another way to understand this name. Even some trinitarians use it.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.”

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

In light of the above therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible says:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”[8]

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1] “quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself also a parallelism: [1] “For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be likely to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #344

Post by FaithWillDo »

tigger 2 wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:11 pm [Replying to FaithWillDo in post #341]

Isaiah 9:6
We may understand the words which make up the name at Is. 9:6 to be in the lower sense. For instance, "Mighty God" could be understood as "a mighty god."

There is another way to understand this name. Even some trinitarians use it.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.”

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

In light of the above therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible says:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”[8]

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1] “quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself also a parallelism: [1] “For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be likely to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.
Dear tigger2,
I agree with your post. I am certain the Doctrine of the Trinity is false and I certainly don't believe that Jesus is God the Father. They are separate but spiritually "one", just as mankind (once converted) will also be "one" with the Father. This happens because God the Father's Spirit which was given in full measure to Christ, is in turn, given to mankind by Christ. Once this conversion event happens within mankind, we become children of God.

As far as the nature of the Godhead, God the Father is supreme and from Him all things exist, including Christ. The difference I have been having with onewithhim is that I believe Christ is mankind's God, not because He is the Father, but because the Father made Christ to be our God. Every part of this creation was done by the Father THROUGH Jesus. All interaction with mankind is by Jesus. He is our creator, Father, God and Savior. But this is only true because God the Father gave Jesus that authority and glory. Once everything is complete and all mankind is "in Christ", Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will be "all in all". Christ's reign over this creation will come to an end because the work the Father gave Him to do is fully accomplished. At that point, all mankind will be made into children of God the Father. Eternity then starts.

The bottom line is Jesus is mankind's God because His God (God the Father) made Him to be our God. Just as God the Father made Satan to be the god of this carnal world. The term "God" is a title. Those who live in this world, follow Satan (unknowingly for the most part) and His ways. Because they do, scripture calls them his children (children of the devil). But once we are saved by Christ, Christ becomes our God and Father because He birthed us (caused us to be born again as children of God). But all these things happen by the direction of the supreme God, God the Father and it is He who Christ fully represents.

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #345

Post by onewithhim »

FaithWillDo wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:21 am
tigger 2 wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:11 pm [Replying to FaithWillDo in post #341]

Isaiah 9:6
We may understand the words which make up the name at Is. 9:6 to be in the lower sense. For instance, "Mighty God" could be understood as "a mighty god."

There is another way to understand this name. Even some trinitarians use it.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982. And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.”

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

In light of the above therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible says:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”[8]

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1] “quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself also a parallelism: [1] “For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be likely to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.
Dear tigger2,
I agree with your post. I am certain the Doctrine of the Trinity is false and I certainly don't believe that Jesus is God the Father. They are separate but spiritually "one", just as mankind (once converted) will also be "one" with the Father. This happens because God the Father's Spirit which was given in full measure to Christ, is in turn, given to mankind by Christ. Once this conversion event happens within mankind, we become children of God.

As far as the nature of the Godhead, God the Father is supreme and from Him all things exist, including Christ. The difference I have been having with onewithhim is that I believe Christ is mankind's God, not because He is the Father, but because the Father made Christ to be our God. Every part of this creation was done by the Father THROUGH Jesus. All interaction with mankind is by Jesus. He is our creator, Father, God and Savior. But this is only true because God the Father gave Jesus that authority and glory. Once everything is complete and all mankind is "in Christ", Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will be "all in all". Christ's reign over this creation will come to an end because the work the Father gave Him to do is fully accomplished. At that point, all mankind will be made into children of God the Father. Eternity then starts.

The bottom line is Jesus is mankind's God because His God (God the Father) made Him to be our God. Just as God the Father made Satan to be the god of this carnal world. The term "God" is a title. Those who live in this world, follow Satan (unknowingly for the most part) and His ways. Because they do, scripture calls them his children (children of the devil). But once we are saved by Christ, Christ becomes our God and Father because He birthed us (caused us to be born again as children of God). But all these things happen by the direction of the supreme God, God the Father and it is He who Christ fully represents.

Joe
You misunderstand our difference. I agree that everything was created THROUGH Jesus because the Father GAVE him that authority. I agree that Jesus will give back the Kingdom to this Father and the Father will be "all in all."

However, all mankind will not become spirit children of God in the spirit realm. Christ was given the job of delivering mankind from sin and death, and this he did by his bodily sacrifice. He did this so that humans can "pick up where Adam left off," if you will. God's purpose was that humans would live, physically, on this earth forever. His original purpose will be fulfilled. There is no reason to think that he changed his mind and now he wants people to become spirits.

He did not assign Satan to be the god of this world. If you are familiar with Scripture, Jehovah ALLOWED Satan to rule the world for a certain period of time. It wasn't Jehovah's idea. He gave Satan that authority so that the Devil could prove a point that he could rule as well as Jehovah could. This is being answered as we speak. It's pretty clear who can rule better. Therefore we know that Satan's time is up for all intents and purposes.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #346

Post by FaithWillDo »

Dear onewithhim,

You said:
However, all mankind will not become spirit children of God in the spirit realm. Christ was given the job of delivering mankind from sin and death, and this he did by his bodily sacrifice. He did this so that humans can "pick up where Adam left off," if you will. God's purpose was that humans would live, physically, on this earth forever. His original purpose will be fulfilled. There is no reason to think that he changed his mind and now he wants people to become spirits.

The are absolutely no verses of scripture that state what you said above. Here is what scripture clearly says:

1Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

All mankind will eventually be "raised a spiritual body". This body is NOT like Adam's body or the body we presently have. It is a spiritual body like the one Christ has.

We will be "changed":

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You said:
He did not assign Satan to be the god of this world. If you are familiar with Scripture, Jehovah ALLOWED Satan to rule the world for a certain period of time. It wasn't Jehovah's idea. He gave Satan that authority so that the Devil could prove a point that he could rule as well as Jehovah could. This is being answered as we speak. It's pretty clear who can rule better. Therefore we know that Satan's time is up for all intents and purposes.

Again, there are no verses that support what you said above.

God never "allows" anything to just happen. God is God and He causes all things to happen to be in accordance with His "will". Adam sinned because God caused him to sin. Satan tempted Eve because God caused Satan to do that work work of deceiving and destroying.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will...

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Satan, through the spirit of anti-Christ, is masquerading as Christ and is deceiving the spiritually blind churches of the world. Satan was placed there by God to "destroy" (spiritually kill) the saints. This is taught in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares and in a few other places in scripture. Here is what the Wheat and the Tares parable means:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

This parable is one of the "the kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables that start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.

Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within" a person so these parables must be applied "within" us. They are spiritual and the spiritual happens "within" us which is where the work of the New Covenant occurs. The Old Covenant is outward and tries to make one righteous through man's outward works. But the New Covenant is spiritual and is Christ's work of changing us spiritually.

The teaching of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares must be applied within a person to properly understand its meaning. In short, the harvest at the end of the world is a believer's moment of conversion when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit from Christ. That is the point when the "Man of Sin", who is of this world, is destroyed and the new child of God, who is of the Kingdom of Heaven, is born.

Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:

Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) within us. At that time, the new child of God is in the womb but not yet born. When it grows into wheat, the unborn child will be ready to be born into the kingdom of Heaven (ready to be harvested).

However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, He leaves us spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Paul's blindness, Mark 8:21-25 & Mat 12:43-45). In other words, Christ does not "appear" to us at the time of the Early Rain because we cannot "see" Him. The Word of God remains veiled from our understanding.

Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (spirit of anti-Christ, lies and deceptions) within us, too. When his seed grows into a tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it is ready for judgment (burned).

As a result of both the child of God and the child of the Devil living within us, we mix "faith" (which is what the child of God walks by) with "works" (which is what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture causes us to "fall away" because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). This is the sin (man's works) that leads to death. Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to "come again". He does so when the wheat is ready to be harvested. This second coming event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in bed in Damascus for three days. It is also called the Baptism of the Spirit.

At the time the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The Man of Sin is "revealed" to us and judged (burned by fire). He is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearing to us. Christ's "appearance" happens because our spiritual blindness has been healed. Then, for the first time, we can understand the truth of God through scripture. After the tares (child of the devil) are burned, all that remains will be the child of God who has just been born. This is the moment of conversion and is when a new child of God is harvested in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Most of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the teachings of the apostles are interconnected and teach on the pathway to salvation. It is mostly taught in bits & pieces with a "little here and a little there":

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The pathway to salvation starts with the Early Rain of the Spirit when an unbeliever is "called out" from the world. But because our spiritual blindness is not healed, Satan deceives us and we "fall away" and lose our salvation. We unknowingly eat the leavened bread of Mat 13:33. However, if we are one of Christ's Elect who have been chosen from the foundation of the world, He will "come again" (the second coming of Christ) to us before we physically die and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that point, we are "born again" and made into a "new vessel".

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Your understanding of God and what He is doing in this creation is not coming from scripture. Can't you see the contradictions your beliefs have with the verses I posted above?

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #347

Post by onewithhim »

FaithWillDo wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:52 am Dear onewithhim,

You said:
However, all mankind will not become spirit children of God in the spirit realm. Christ was given the job of delivering mankind from sin and death, and this he did by his bodily sacrifice. He did this so that humans can "pick up where Adam left off," if you will. God's purpose was that humans would live, physically, on this earth forever. His original purpose will be fulfilled. There is no reason to think that he changed his mind and now he wants people to become spirits.

The are absolutely no verses of scripture that state what you said above. Here is what scripture clearly says:

1Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

All mankind will eventually be "raised a spiritual body".
Joe
No, you misunderstand what Paul was saying. He was writing to other anointed Christians who would also, with him, reign with Christ in heaven. It is only those relatively few people that will be changed to spirit bodies so they can live in the spirit realm. Who will they reign over? Us billions of people who will be living forever on the earth. We will retain our physical bodies, just as every passage in the Hebrew Scriptures indicates.

Animals aren't in heaven nor will they ever be. But the Scriptures show that there will be animals on the earth after Armageddon that will live in peace with humans. "The wolf will reside with the lamb, and with the young goat the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; and a little boy will lead them....They will not cause any harm or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will be filled with the knowledge knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9) A physical existence.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #348

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #347]

Dear onewithhim,

You said:
No, you misunderstand what Paul was saying. He was writing to other anointed Christians who would also, with him, reign with Christ in heaven. It is only those relatively few people that will be changed to spirit bodies so they can live in the spirit realm. Who will they reign over? Us billions of people who will be living forever on the earth. We will retain our physical bodies, just as every passage in the Hebrew Scriptures indicates.

Yes, Paul was speaking about the Elect/First Fruits who are going to be saved in this age. They are "first" but not the last.

Everyone who is not saved in this age will be "reigned" over by Christ & the Elect during the final age. They will not be blessed to have "life" during the ages or to reign with Christ during the final age. Only the Elect/First Fruits will inherit the earth (carnal mankind) and will reign with Him until the final age is complete. Everyone else will have to wait to be saved at the end of that final age. But at the end when they are saved, they will still receive spiritual bodies when they are resurrected and enter the Kingdom of Heaven:

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Once the Kingdom of Heaven is complete, Christ will deliver it up to the Father. All mankind will be in the Kingdom of Heaven in new spiritual bodies. There will be no flesh remaining for Christ and His Elect to "reign" over. For that reason, Christ's reign, along with the "ages", will come to an end. Eternity then starts.

Christ will have completed the mission the Father gave Him to accomplish:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

You must rightly divide the Word of God by the covenants & by the ages. And then when you apply that separation with an understanding of Christ's spiritual language, the "Hebrew Scriptures" will make more sense to you.

You said:
Animals aren't in heaven nor will they ever be. But the Scriptures show that there will be animals on the earth after Armageddon that will live in peace with humans. "The wolf will reside with the lamb, and with the young goat the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; and a little boy will lead them....They will not cause any harm or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will be filled with the knowledge knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9) A physical existence.

Yes, animals will probably be on the earth in the final age but I don't know of any verses that specific teach it. Also, Armageddon is a "spiritual symbol" for the complete destruction of our carnal nature. It is part of the conversion process. It happens "within" each person as they are saved.

In Isaiah 11, the chapter gives us a glimpse of this present age when Christ saves His Elect (the little children). It is taught in spiritual language. Also, in the verses of chapter 11, they are not speaking of literal animals. The wolf, lamb, goat, leopard, calf and lion are spiritual symbols which represent believers who are not converted. The "little child" who will lead them represents a converted chosen believer.

Unless you can understand the "spiritual language" in which scripture teaches, you are going to keep seeing Christ in the flesh (literal and carnal understanding).

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #349

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #348]

Paul spoke of two types of bodies, and he and the rest of the 144,000 will attain to spirit bodies in the spiritual realm. The earth was never meant to be the spirit realm, and will remain as it is forever. (Ecclesiastes 1:4; Psalm 37:29; Psalm 78:69; Psalm 104:5) THIS earth, not a completely different one. Those of us who will be on Earth will always have physical bodies and will be who Jehovah considers righteous, having come out of the Great Tribulation unscathed, all the wicked having been destroyed at Armageddon. (2Thess.1:6-9) Why would you think that the wicked would still be free to practice their evil stuff for a thousand years on Earth? No, there will be no wicked on Earth held over from before Armageddon, and those who live on Earth during that time will all be righteously disposed---until the end when some decide to follow Satan. After the final word from Jehovah, humankind will be free to at last "come alive," because they have chosen Jehovah's side and can now live forever unimpeded.

Why would God make the original humans physical and then change them into spirits? He could have made everyone spirits in the beginning.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #350

Post by FaithWillDo »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:25 pm [Replying to FaithWillDo in post #348]

Paul spoke of two types of bodies, and he and the rest of the 144,000 will attain to spirit bodies in the spiritual realm. The earth was never meant to be the spirit realm, and will remain as it is forever. (Ecclesiastes 1:4; Psalm 37:29; Psalm 78:69; Psalm 104:5) THIS earth, not a completely different one. Those of us who will be on Earth will always have physical bodies and will be who Jehovah considers righteous, having come out of the Great Tribulation unscathed, all the wicked having been destroyed at Armageddon. (2Thess.1:6-9) Why would you think that the wicked would still be free to practice their evil stuff for a thousand years on Earth? No, there will be no wicked on Earth held over from before Armageddon, and those who live on Earth during that time will all be righteously disposed---until the end when some decide to follow Satan. After the final word from Jehovah, humankind will be free to at last "come alive," because they have chosen Jehovah's side and can now live forever unimpeded.

Why would God make the original humans physical and then change them into spirits? He could have made everyone spirits in the beginning.

.
Dear onewithhim,
I would like to see the scriptures that you say support your statements above. What you presented is a complete misunderstanding of God's Word and the very nature of who God is.

Your beliefs teach a "works" based belief system which will never save anyone. A "works" based belief system is what the Old Covenant teaches and because it fails to save us, it will lead us to Christ when a person comes to that realization.

One other thing you are denying; God is in full control of this creation and nothing happens within it that God does not cause. So whenever anything happens in this world, know that God caused it, both good or evil. He is God and His "will" is being done and no one can withstand Him:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

In the beginning, God made mankind spiritually "marred" and subject to vanity. There are no works of man that can change that marred spiritual condition. Only Christ can change us spiritually. When He does, we will all accept Him as Lord and can then start "coming unto the knowledge of the truth". To believe that mankind can do any "works" whatsoever that will save themselves is a lie from Satan and is a product of the carnal mind.

I will now answer your question about why God made us with physical bodies first and then will make us with spiritual bodies.

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

In this creation, God set down a pattern to be followed. The physical comes first, then the spiritual. We are created in physical bodies with a marred spirit, then we are born again with a spiritual body with a perfect spirit.

When the Word of God was first given to man, it came physically on tablets of stone. Then when Christ comes to us spiritually, He writes the law in our hearts. When we first try to understand God's Word (Christ), we see Him "in the flesh", meaning that our understanding of Him comes from our carnal nature which "cannot understand God". Then when Christ converts us, we start seeing Him spiritually.

So why does God do it that way? Here is the "big picture" of creation which I wrote for another forum post and which will answer that question:

Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is flawed. It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ, while in a physical body, was not. Christ was spiritually perfect and this empowered Him to overcome this carnal world and never sin. But with mankind, we cannot overcome this world and we frequently sin as a result of our spiritual flaw.

It is not man's fault that we were created imperfect. God is responsible for our marred spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, ...

So why did God make us spiritually flawed?

Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring, He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, ... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Because of our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, we ALL become sinful evil creatures.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God. And because of such, we can't understand Him or want to seek His ways.

On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything else but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Side note to onewithhim:
Is this the physical condition you think mankind is striving to return to? To face constant temptations from our carnal nature? What a miserable existence that will be. As Paul said:

Rom 7:24 O' wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul was not talking about the fact that we have mortal bodies. He was talking about the temptations that our flesh gives us and how difficult it is to resist those temptations. And when we fail, the penalty of sin (death) is the result. To answer Paul's question, Christ is the One who will deliver us from this body of death and He does so by giving us a new spiritual nature and a spiritual body which will not tempt us.


God, of course, knew Adam and Eve were carnally minded and would sin because He made them that way. And for this same reason, all of Adam & Eve's offspring sin as well. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and because He wants children, He needed to create a pathway back to Himself for mankind. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ to be our Savior:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). For this reason, all mankind must die. This is an absolute truth that cannot be broken. The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we all must pay.

Christ's work on the cross gave Him the legal authority to raise us from the grave and to give us this new life. He did not die on the cross to keep us from paying the penalty of sin. He died on the cross so that our spiritually flawed vessel (which must be destroyed) can be made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. We do not have the ability to make a "free will" choice to accept Christ. No man has that ability in our spiritually marred created condition. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us FIRST and change us from within. He does this work by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

When Christ does this work within us, we ALL fall to the ground and call Him "Lord" - just as Paul "typed" for us on the Damascus Road, Acts 9:3-9. There are NO EXCEPTIONS.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (Eph 5:32). The Early Rain of the Spirit is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit and will not save us. Because of this partial measure of the Spirit, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and controlled by our carnal nature. As a result, Satan can and does easily deceive us.

When Satan comes to a new believer, he masquerades as an "angel of light" (Christ).

2Cor 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We accept this deception because we are spiritually blind and don't yet have the ability to truly know Christ. Satan then feeds us his lies (leavened bread via his "ministers"), which we readily accept as the truth of Christ because his lies are pleasing to our carnal nature.

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Satan's ministers hide "leaven" in the meal until the whole loaf is secretly leavened with Satan's lies. Since we all eat from this leavened loaf shortly after receiving the Early Rain, we all come under Satan's deceptions. And since the leaven is "hidden" in the loaf, we don't even know that Satan is deceiving us.

Christ explained this process again this way:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Unclean (evil) spirits represent Satan bringing his false truth to us. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs of the world with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first".

Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound to our Old Man (carnal nature) that came from the sword of Christ is healed because of Satan's deceptions.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Instead of solely approaching Christ by Faith (New Covenant), we begin approaching Christ by "works" (Old Covenant). As a result, we remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast (mankind) and the death that we needed to pay to satisfy our sin debt, remains unpaid.

This happens because our carnal nature, which still lives because of Satan's deceptions, PREFERS the Old Covenant of Works over the New Covenant of Faith:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

After coming under Satan's deceptions, we become "worse than before" (Man of Sin). We have truly "fallen away" and have returned to "works" (religion) for our salvation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). And from this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief system to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why believers are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will" because we were smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who rejected Christ. But in truth, we are not. It was ONLY because of Christ's work (Early Rain) within us that caused us to accept Christ as "Lord".

What I have stated above is part of the wide pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it since our vessel must be destroyed before we can receive a new vessel (be "born again").

Because a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die OR Christ comes to them a second time.

In this age, Christ is only working to save His Elect, the First-Fruits of the harvest of mankind. They have been chosen from the foundation of the world and are the ONLY ones who are going to be saved at this time.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

However, the rest of mankind has not been forgotten by Christ. Their salvation will come in the final age (Lake of Fire age). Since mankind's salvation is 100% the work of Christ, no man can change the timing of their own salvation. The Elect are saved now in this age. In the final age, all Gentiles will be saved next. Then after their "fullness" has come in, the remaining part of Israel will finally be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

If a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world, Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes to us a second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the new babe in Christ is born. It is at this point the chosen believer begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to maturity as a son of God.

What I have stated above is an abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect in this age. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind.

And as I said earlier, Christ will not forget the rest of mankind and will NOT leave them to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing now is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Why? Because we are made spiritually blind and cannot know what God is doing until we receive the Latter Rain.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is God's "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. All mankind will be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the pathway and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

One final point I want to make. End-time prophecy is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. All End-time verses should be applied spiritually "within" us and not out in the world as is commonly taught. When the Latter Rain falls on one of God's chosen Elect, it causes a spiritual earthquake with lightning and thunder and trumpets. Our worldly carnal paradigm is destroyed and we are given a new paradigm in Christ. At that point, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood. We no longer receive the natural light of this world. We now receive "light" (truth of God) directly from Christ.

Joe

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