#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #20]

Jesus took it literally.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Yes, meaning if you do not forgive others, you will not be forgiven. By the measure you use, it will be measured against you. In the same way you judge others, you will be judged. (Matt 7:2)

It does not meant that if you waterboarded someone, God is going to waterboard you, of course!


Just that if you judge others, you will be judged. If you do not forgive others, you will not be forgiven.

Peace to you.

When Jesus spoke the good and bad servant parable man was under the Old Testament Covenant, where the only path to everlasting life was to remain without sin. The wages of sin is death. So man had to be sinless to gain everlasting life.

But sin no longer controls our salvation under the New Testament Covenant, so not being forgiven of sins is a moot point in regards to gaining salvation..

The New Testament became effective and the original testament became the Old Testament when Jesus died on the Cross.

So when Jesus spoke that parable we were under the original covenant and forgiveness of man's sin was critical to gain everlasting life, because one unforgiven sin would prevent a person's salvation.

After Jesus' death, that is no longer the case.

[PinSeeker]

When Jesus spoke the good and bad servant parable man was under the Old Testament Covenant, where the only path to everlasting life was to remain without sin.

Absolutely incorrect. When Jesus began His public ministry, He quoted Isaiah 61 and proclaimed the fulfillment in Himself of Isaiah's prophecy. He came to bring good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound. This is to say that He Himself said that when He came -- which was about 30 years prior to the day He actually spoke those words -- that He was the Way to salvation, and no longer the Mosaic Law. This is very clear all through the New Testament, Hebrews in particular.

And actually, myth-one, the Law never was the path to everlasting life after Adam's Fall in Genesis 3 -- as we first hear in Genesis 3:15 -- because it was always impossible for mere man to remain without sin. As we both know, only Jesus remained without sin, and was able to remain without sin only because He was God in addition to being man (born of a woman), which is exactly what qualifies Him to be the Mediator between God and man. And this was the very reason for His sacrifice, the reason that He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross, thereby paying the wages of sin, death, on our behalf, and satisfying the perfect justice of the Father, making the way for us, because we are in Christ, to be justified even in our sin. This is the Gospel.

The New Testament became effective and the original testament became the Old Testament when Jesus died on the Cross.

Jesus's sacrifice was effective for all believers, both in Old Testament times and New. This is why, myth-one, before Jesus's life and sacrifice, the sacrificial system was in place. In Old Testament times, the Israelites had to regularly sacrifice a lamb without blemish to the Father, and this sacrifice pointed toward the true sacrifice -- God's Lamb without blemish (sin) -- to come. The only difference between the Israelites of old and us is that, while we look back on the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus, they were looking forward to it. This is how we are one people (not two), the Israel of God.

But sin no longer controls our salvation under the New Testament Covenant...

Sin never "controlled our salvation." See above.

...not being forgiven of sins is a moot point in regards to gaining salvation.

This is TOTALLY antithetical to the entire Bible. One MUST be forgiven of his/her sin to receive salvation; this was always true, from Genesis 3 on. It was the reason for sacrifice in the Old Testament, and the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God -- which, like I said, was the perfect fulfillment of the sacrifices of the Old -- in the New.

So when Jesus spoke that parable we were under the original covenant...

Nope. See above.

...and forgiveness of man's sin was critical to gain everlasting life, because one unforgiven sin would prevent a person's salvation.

Well sure. Fortunately, if we are in Christ, if we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive. This was always and will always be the case -- until Jesus comes back, because then there will be no more sin, which means we will not sin anymore and therefore no longer have to confess and ask forgiveness. See above.

After Jesus' death, that is no longer the case.

Nope. Still the case. Again, fortunately, if we are in Christ, if we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive. And this was always and will always be the case -- until Jesus comes back, because then there will be no more sin, which means we will not sin anymore and therefore no longer have to confess and ask forgiveness.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

When Jesus spoke the good and bad servant parable man was under the Old Testament Covenant, where the only path to everlasting life was to remain without sin.

Absolutely incorrect.

Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

The New Testament Covenant became the effective covenant, when the testator died:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

A testator is a person who makes a will. "A testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Therefore, the New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away as a will when Jesus Christ died on the cross. Once the New Testament became the active will, no one could gain eternal life by remaining sinless as required under the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

The only path to salvation presently is through a belief in Jesus Christ under terms of the New Testament covenant:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #114]

There have been others in the history of the church who have argued that there is little discontinuity between the covenants and that the changes made by the inauguration of the new covenant were essentially “cosmetic” changes. Those on this end of the spectrum would argue that much of the Old Testament is directly applicable to Christians today. Some who hold this view would argue that Christians must continue to observe the Sabbath on the seventh day or that Christians must continue to observe the Old Testament feast days. Both extremes should be avoided. There is both continuity and discontinuity between the old and new covenants.

While there are many today who read passages of Scripture, such as those found in Hebrews 8:7 or 8:13, and conclude that there is no continuity between the two covenants, a closer examination of Hebrews 8 and the place of the new covenant in redemptive history reveals that such a conclusion is premature.

One of the most obvious points of continuity between the old and new covenants is found within the very promise of the new covenant itself. The author of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah’s new covenant prophecy in Hebrews 8:8–12. In verse 10, we read, “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” We find a point of continuity in the words “my laws.” Under the old covenant, God wrote His laws on tablets of stone (Ex. 24:12). Under the new covenant, God will write His laws on the hearts of His people to replace the sin that is presently written there (Jer. 17:1), but that which is written by God on the hearts of His people remains essentially the same as that which was written on tablets of stone. That aspect of the law that most fundamentally reflects God’s own righteous character always remains the same.

Another way to explain the continuity between the old and new covenants is to apply the illustration Paul uses in Galatians 3:24–25. Paul writes, “So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.” The “guardian” (Greek paidagogos), was a slave whose job it was to conduct a young boy to and from school and to supervise his conduct. When the boy grew up, the “guardian” was no longer needed. This analogy can help us understand better the elements of continuity between the covenants.

The point of application to the issue of continuity is this: Once the child has grown to adulthood the guardian is obsolete, but that which the guardian taught the child is not. Paul uses this analogy of growth from childhood to adulthood as a way of viewing the people of God throughout redemptive history. The old covenant administration was intended for the people of God in their “childhood.” When the people of God reach “adulthood,” this childhood “guardian” is no longer needed. It is now “obsolete.” But that which the guardian taught the child (“my laws”) remains the same even after he becomes an adult.

The focal point where the old and new covenants meet is found in Jesus Christ. The old covenant, as a guardian, prepares the way for Him and prepares His people for Him. The old covenant included that which has been traditionally described as “moral law” as well as that which was typical. That which was typical underwent change when the reality to which it pointed arrived. When the dawn came, the shadows disappeared (cf. Heb. 10:1). The people of God are now defined in terms of their relation to Jesus (cf. Gal 3:16, 29) rather than their relation to Jacob/Israel. The Promised Land is now defined in terms of the entire creation (cf. Matt. 5:5; Rom. 4:13) rather than a piece of real estate on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. The temple is now defined in terms of Jesus Christ and His people (cf. John 2:21; 1 Cor. 3:16; Eph. 2:21) rather than a building of stone and mortar. The ceremonial laws are now defined in terms of the atoning death of Christ (cf. Heb. 9:11–10:11) rather than the blood of bulls and goats.

The moral law, however -- that which sets forth the universal and eternal standards of righteousness -- is unchanged. Jesus Himself said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Although it is now written on the hearts of God’s people rather than on tablets of stone, this law remains the same.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #115]

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

Grace and peace to all those whom you would have condemned to everlasting torment.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #115]

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13)

A total miss of the point. And totally out of context. But all that is par for the course, unfortunately. Oh, and "par for the course" is a metaphor and not to be taken in the manner that you actually played eighteen holes of golf and shot par...

See what I did there?

Grace and peace to all those whom you would have condemned to everlasting torment.

LOL!!! Well, God does that, not me.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Grace and peace to all those whom you would have condemned to everlasting torment.

LOL!!! Well, God does that, not me.

Grace and peace to you.

God condemns no human to everlasting torment -- God is Love.

It's sad that you believe God would do so!

God grants mankind everlasting life or everlasting death -- and each human makes that personal individual choice.

Do you need the fear of everlasting torment to scare mankind to God?

If not, what is it's purpose??

[PinSeeker]

God condemns no human to everlasting torment...

Oh but He does, and would be fully justified to do that with all of mankind, but chooses to have mercy and compassion on some, out of His grace. But yes, he does, and that's the reason that, in the first verse of Romans 8, Paul says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." Implicit in that is that not all are in Christ Jesus, and these do not receive God's mercy or compassion, and those do not receive God's mercy or compassion are subject to God's condemnation (for sin).

God is Love.

That He is, but your issue is not with His love but with the grace of salvation, which He does not give to all. There is such thing as what we call common grace, which He does have on all, because He does indeed love all of His creation, because, like you say, He is love. But salvation is a particular grace not given to all. You are confusing love with grace; God can and is infinitely loving to all, but chooses who will receive the particular grace of salvation. The fact that He does not give this particular grace of salvation to some does not mean that He does not love them or that He is not loving toward them. And I would say, as I have before, that God's justice must be satisfied. If God were not to satisfy His justice, that would be very unloving... the antithesis of love, actually.

Do you need the fear of everlasting torment to scare mankind to God?

Do I? Of course not, but that's a non sequitur. Whether God gives this mercy and compassion to anyone is not up to me. It is not up to anyone except God, Who gives this particular grace.

And, myth-one, how someone reacts, whether positively or negatively, to God's promise of salvation to those who would repent and believe or His promise of condemnation to those who do not is up to the hearer. If an unbeliever does react in fear due to the realization of the true consequence (everlasting torment) of not repenting and believing and subsequently repents and believes, then I would call that a great thing. Wouldn't you? Paul does... He says God's kindness is meant to lead us to repentance (Romans 2:4). Yes, I mean, "(t)e fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10), right?

If not, what is it's purpose??

AH! Great question! I'm not sure how many times I've answered it -- once already in this post; see above -- but I will do so again: God's justice must be satisfied. And not just for God's sake, either. If God were not to satisfy His justice, that would be very unloving... the antithesis of love, actually.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

God condemns no human to everlasting torment...

Oh but He does, . . .

Ohhhh but He does not. PinSeeker tries to pin that on God, but it is not true!

The punishment is what is everlasting, not the torment:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ( Matthew 25:46)

And the punishment which is everlasting is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And the dead know not any thing:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

They don't even know they're dead. They surely do not feel any torment.

Whether God gives this mercy and compassion to anyone is not up to me. It is not up to anyone except God, Who gives this particular grace.

Thank God it’s not up to you, with your everlasting torment private interpretation!

The truth will really be a shock to your system!

God has no choice but to award everlasting life to whosoever believeth in Jesus as their Savior!

God is bound by the covenant between Him and mankind. Under the New Testament Covenant, God cannot refuse everlasting life to anyone who believes in Jesus as their Savior!

Whether red, or yellow, black or white, male, female, or transgender, whether gay or straight, whether rich or poor, good or evil, dumb or smart, pretty or ugly, giant or dwarf, perfect or deformed, sane or insane, etc, etc, etc, they are precious in His sight and will gain everlasting life if they believeth in Jesus as their Savior!

The "elect" are whosoever!

So under God, all men and women really are created equal.

That is how God administers justice.

And, myth-one, how someone reacts, whether positively or negatively, to God's promise of salvation to those who would repent and believe or His promise of condemnation to those who do not is up to the hearer. If an unbeliever does react in fear due to the realization of the true consequence (everlasting torment) of not repenting and believing and subsequently repents and believes, then I would call that a great thing. Wouldn't you?

Absolutely not!

That false belief drives more people away from God than to God.

Eternal torment in hell is so foreign from what Jesus taught that anyone should be able to deduce that both concepts cannot possibly be true.

That being the case, many will reasonably conclude that the entire religion bit is just a con game.

In fact, the Bible prophesies that the Christian Church will fail in spreading the good news of the gospel to all nations.

I’ve seen sermons where salvation was treated like an insurance policy. That is, say you believe and go through the motions just in case it’s true – so you can avoid the everlasting torment bit.

What a fraud that was.

The everlasting torment lie has no place in Christianity. Only the devil is said to be tormented forever in the Bible:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

Paul does... He says God's kindness is meant to lead us to repentance (Romans 2:4). Yes, I mean, "(t)e fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10), right?

Respect for the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

God's justice must be satisfied.

You say that often. What does it mean??

What is true is that God must be true and just:

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Revelation 15:3)

He is just and true by honoring His laws and covenants.

That is God’s justice.

[2timothy316]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ( Matthew 25:46)

And the punishment which is everlasting is death:

Another scripture that uses the word κολαζομένους for punish is 2 Peter 2:9, which is translated literally as to prune, lopped off, or cut off. This is the word's first definition. To so the Greek word offers a double meaning. Not just to punish but to punish in the way of pruning like you would branches off a tree. Cutting someone off verses a person that lives forever, there is only one contrast a person can conclude and that person is cut off from what else but from life.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2849: κολαζο

κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.