The 144,000 in JW theology

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Wootah
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The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Wootah »

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #461

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:29 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:24 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:10 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. You are of course ignoring the initial written by humans detail. If you rely on the Bible, you reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
When you say "it is that way" I take it you can offer proof that the text has not been supernaturally originated?
I stated that the Bible was written by humans. Are you suggesting that it wasn't?


Tcg
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #462

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:31 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:29 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:24 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:10 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. You are of course ignoring the initial written by humans detail. If you rely on the Bible, you reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
When you say "it is that way" I take it you can offer proof that the text has not been supernaturally originated?
I stated that the Bible was written by humans. Are you suggesting that it wasn't?


Tcg
I'm suggesting it is not the result of human minds, yes humans may have penned it or it may have been written from some oral source but I am suggesting it is not of human origin.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #463

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:40 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:31 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:29 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:24 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:10 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. You are of course ignoring the initial written by humans detail. If you rely on the Bible, you reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
When you say "it is that way" I take it you can offer proof that the text has not been supernaturally originated?
I stated that the Bible was written by humans. Are you suggesting that it wasn't?


Tcg
I'm suggesting it is not the result of human minds, yes humans may have penned it or it may have been written from some oral source but I am suggesting it is not of human origin.
And yet you've not provided any aspect of the production of the Bible that isn't the result of human activity.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #464

Post by 2timothy316 »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:52 am
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:07 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:51 pm
Members of organized groups like this (and there are a great many) have likely already embraced the "statement of beliefs" and other doctrinal baggage (else they'd not have decided to become members).
That is not how it happened for me. So this statement is not true. Doctrinal baggage was lifted off of me. Jesus' load is light. (Matt 11:28-30). The death of the wicked doesn't burden me at all. Yet it seems from how you're reacting to scripture the Bible seems to burden you.

You sure like trying to guess how and why everyone is where they are. As Witnesses we are strongly encouraged not to judge a person before speaking with them. Are we perfect at it? No but as I said before, there are no perfect people.

1 Samuel 16:7 says, "mere man sees what appears to the eyes."
This is why as Witnesses we are taught to try and discern the heart, using God's Word the Bible. (Heb. 4:12)
Can we discuss blood transfusions then? how is that not doctrinal baggage? were you opposed to that before joining this organization?
There are already threads on that subject.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38267&p=1037833&hi ... s#p1037833
You see it as baggage, I do not. Jesus' blood saves my life not yours or anyone else's.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #465

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am .. I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
And if you find information in the bible does not agree with your personal preference, what do you do? I ask because, if you reference the bible you must know that the Apostles and first century Christians most certainly made up what would be decribed today as an organised religion. And Jesus indicated this was exactly what he intended for them.



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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #466

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:52 am
Can we discuss blood transfusions then? ....
Emphasis MINE

You are most welcome to start another thread or find one that with that as the discussion topic and do so.

This OP is focussing on the 144, 000.




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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #467

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:44 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:40 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:31 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:29 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:24 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:10 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. You are of course ignoring the initial written by humans detail. If you rely on the Bible, you reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
When you say "it is that way" I take it you can offer proof that the text has not been supernaturally originated?
I stated that the Bible was written by humans. Are you suggesting that it wasn't?


Tcg
I'm suggesting it is not the result of human minds, yes humans may have penned it or it may have been written from some oral source but I am suggesting it is not of human origin.
And yet you've not provided any aspect of the production of the Bible that isn't the result of human activity.


Tcg
How do you think we'd establish that? assume it were true, then what would you seek as evidence that it was not of human origin? what hallmarks might it have?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #468

Post by 2timothy316 »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Yet that is not what I see you doing. I see a bunch of judging based on your dogma and wanting others to trust you on what is right and wrong.

Most JWs want to live on Earth forever on a paradise. Yet you say this is wrong even though the Bible says that the earth will endure forever with righteous people on it. The Bible gives a limited number of those that will be Jesus as rulers in Heaven. But you define that as wrong too. While you say you don't rely on others for what is right and wrong you sure do want others to depend on you.

For what I read in your replies to me and others, your dogma takes center stage. Which is in reality just an opinion.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #469

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:07 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am .. I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
And if you find information in the bible does not agree with your personal preference, what do you do?
I pray, I seek, I examine my own motives, my own thinking, try to remove my personal desires from the question.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:07 am I ask because, if you reference the bible you must know that the Apostles and first century Christians most certainly made up what would be described today as an organized religion. And Jesus indicated this was exactly what he intended for them.
Perhaps, there's perhaps some truth to that, early church history is a fascinating subject but the Apostles did know Christ personally, they were true witnesses, the Apostolic fathers knew the Apostles, but as time went on the connection naturally grew more and more tenuous and the Catholic church emerged very early on.

Further, the Apostles were directly or indirectly the first (human) source of the written Gospels and Epistles.

Christ rebuked organized structures that burdened people with a "yoke" and today's "sects" pretty much do the same thing, even if the earliest "church" could be described as an "organization" I doubt it bore any resemblance to today's busy body ridden organizations.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #470

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:50 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:07 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:07 am I ask because, if you reference the bible you must know that the Apostles and first century Christians most certainly made up what would be described today as an organized religion. And Jesus indicated this was exactly what he intended for them.
Perhaps, there's perhaps some truth to that, ... but the Apostles did know Christ personally, they were true witnesses, the Apostolic fathers knew the Apostles, but as time went on the connection naturally grew more and more tenuous and the Catholic church emerged very early on.



So you recognized that an organised structured church was the Apostolic model and that these {to quote you" } "Apostles did know Christ personally, [and] were true witnesses"? From this can we not surmise that Christ' s wish as communicate to his Apostles is that his followers belong to an organised religion that follows the original early pattern?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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