Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Eloi
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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #51

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:13 pm What is there inside a person according to your ideas? You say that a person is a spirit person that is inside a physical body, right? (It leaves the physical body at death and goes on living, consciously, somewhere else.) That is what I am trying to say. Where is this taught in Scripture?

.
First, I assume that we are in agreement that..

1. God is has a mind (the ability to think/perceive)
2. God isn't physical (his being isn't made up of matter)

So, if we are in agreement with #1 and #2, it follows that...

God is an sentient, immaterial being. Now, what do we call this concept (of what God is).

We call it a spirit, as scripture tells us that God is a spirit (John 4:24).

Now, scripture tells us that man is/was made in God's image (Gen 1:27).

Since man is physical, and God isn't physical, then we aren't made in God's image in a physical sense. But what man shares in common with God, is the fact that we also have spirits.

The difference is, God's spirit doesn't occupy a physical body...however, human bodies are occupied by spirits.

Now, I don't know what spirits "look" like per se...but just to put a conception on it, just think of a spirit as a sentient hologram of yourself.

That being said; God created a system to whereas an immaterial spirit can be conjoined to a physical body in order to make this body "living". The spirit resides in the body and goes wherever the body goes, until the body is no longer operable, and the spirit leaves the body.

That is EXACTLY what happened in Matt 27:50, when Jesus gave up his spirit, thus leaving behind a lifeless body.

Think of your car as your body, and your physical body as your spirit. When your car is broken down and no longer operable, your body can get out the car and roam, correct?

Same thing with the body/spirit.

The scriptures I appeal to are...

1. Matt 27:50 (as just mentioned).

2. Luke 23:43 Jesus told the believing thief on the cross that the thief will be with him (Jesus) in paradise. In other words, they would both have a presence elsewhere after the events of the cross. (the NWT, which is the Bible that JW's use, deceptively butchers this verse, which is a crying shame and opponent of truth).

3. 2 Corinth 5:8 Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". If all we have is a physical body, then how can we be absent from our body? Unless being absent means that we LEAVE our bodies and our spirits are manifested with the Lord.....which harmonizes PERFECTLY WITH WHAT JESUS TOLD THE THIEF ON THE CROSS in Luke 23:43.

I have more, but those 3 should be enough.

Now, I know that all of this is completely against JW theology, as they don't believe in the immorality of the spirit and life after death...but hey.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #52

Post by William »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #51]
Since man is physical, and God isn't physical, then we aren't made in God's image in a physical sense. But what man shares in common with God, is the fact that we also have spirits.
I think of it differently, in that I would have written;

Since the human form is physical, and God isn't physical, then we aren't made in God's image in a physical sense. But what man shares in common with God, is the fact that we also are spirit(s).

I think that is what you are saying anyway, but wording the concept to specifically focus on the spirit aspect of the human experience, mind/consciousness = "Spirit/Ghost" which is something we know exists as immaterial and has profound influence on the material world.

I would add to that something The Tanager wrote along the lines that 'personality' is what is garnered from the human experience which would be Spirit + Human form = created individuate personality. Something is created through the process.

But Spirit [immaterial] is not created and is what we are behind the personality, and the personality is not who we are, but something we create and act through - like a costume worn in a play -

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #53

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:39 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:08 pm If you can't rock with the 144,000 thing, then any further explanations from me will fall on deaf ears, if you will.
Then what did you say? Because I can't hear you :lol:
onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:08 pm Isaiah 11:6-9 does definitely speak of conditions during Jesus' Millennial Reign (and thereafter). Revelation 7 speaks of those anointed co-rulers with Christ as they live in heaven.
Rev 7 mentions nothing about any co-rulers of Christ in heaven, OWH.

*Sigh*
They are the same ones that are mentioned in Revelation 14 who are standing with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion, so who else would they be than the co-rulers with Christ? They are spoken of at Rev.5:10 as "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." You can also see them mentioned again in chapter 20, particularly verses 4 and 6. Why do you doubt that Christ will have associate rulers?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #54

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:21 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:13 pm What is there inside a person according to your ideas? You say that a person is a spirit person that is inside a physical body, right? (It leaves the physical body at death and goes on living, consciously, somewhere else.) That is what I am trying to say. Where is this taught in Scripture?

.
First, I assume that we are in agreement that..

1. God is has a mind (the ability to think/perceive)
2. God isn't physical (his being isn't made up of matter)

So, if we are in agreement with #1 and #2, it follows that...

God is an sentient, immaterial being. Now, what do we call this concept (of what God is).

We call it a spirit, as scripture tells us that God is a spirit (John 4:24).

Now, scripture tells us that man is/was made in God's image (Gen 1:27).
Yes, man is made in God's image, but of course that doesn't mean we are spirit beings. "In his image" means that we are endowed with Jehovah's attributes: love, power, wisdom, and justice. It does not mean that we are actually spirits inside physical bodies. Look for more information on this if you so desire to learn more....on the website www.jw.org .

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #55

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #51]
When Jesus "gave up his spirit," what he gave up was the breath of life that God gave him to keep him breathing. It was God's holy spirit by which Jehovah accomplishes what He wants to do, and how He keeps living things alive. That is the spirit that Jesus gave up. It didn't keep him breathing any more.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #56

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #51]

You say JWs butcher the verse at Luke 23:43? No, we just place the comma AFTER "today." That is all. It has to be after "today" because Jesus was dead for three days before he was resurrected, and then he was on the earth for 40 or 50 more days before ascending to heaven. So you don't believe that Jesus was really dead for three days?

The thief had the understanding that it would be some time before Jesus "got into his Kingdom." (Luke 23:42) He was right. It would be some time before Jesus would start ruling as King. He didn't expect to be anywhere that day. So how did we "butcher" that verse, Venom? The position of the comma has great significance, and you must know that there is no punctuation in the Greek language, so the comma is added at the discretion of the translator. There are more good reasons for placing the comma AFTER "today" than there are for placing it before "today."

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #57

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

William wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:54 pm
I think of it differently, in that I would have written;

Since the human form is physical, and God isn't physical, then we aren't made in God's image in a physical sense. But what man shares in common with God, is the fact that we also are spirit(s).
I agree. I am more tempted to say "I HAVE a spirit" i.e my body has a spirit.

But outside the physical form; I AM a spirit.

Make no mistake about it, we are spirits, as you say.
I think that is what you are saying anyway, but wording the concept to specifically focus on the spirit aspect of the human experience, mind/consciousness = "Spirit/Ghost" which is something we know exists as immaterial and has profound influence on the material world.
100% agree. The mind and spirit can be used interchangeably in any context.
I would add to that something The Tanager wrote along the lines that 'personality' is what is garnered from the human experience which would be Spirit + Human form = created individuate personality. Something is created through the process.
I agree.
But Spirit [immaterial] is not created and is what we are behind the personality, and the personality is not who we are, but something we create and act through - like a costume worn in a play
Question; a spirit with no personality will be what, exactly?
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #58

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:29 pm
They are the same ones that are mentioned in Revelation 14 who are standing with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion, so who else would they be than the co-rulers with Christ? They are spoken of at Rev.5:10 as "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." You can also see them mentioned again in chapter 20, particularly verses 4 and 6. Why do you doubt that Christ will have associate rulers?
Now see, here is where the NWT (the only Bible that JW's will use) becomes deceptive.

Notice you said "...and they are to rule as kings over the earth".

Keyword: Over

Depending on how you view "over" in this context, it can be taken to mean that they (Christ and his co-rulers) will be in heaven and will reign OVER the earth (as heaven is above earth).

However, when you look at virtually any English translation/version of the verse (Rev 5:10), the scripture reads "...and they will reign on the earth".

Keywords: On

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%205:10

And you will have to strain your eyes to find the 2 or 3 translations which reads "over the earth" out of the dozens which reads "on".

I ever looked up the Greek lexicon

https://biblehub.com/revelation/5-10.htm#lexicon

Upon: meaning "on".

You already acknowledged that it will be a earthly reign anyway, but this is a typical JW "slight of hand trick" with the scripture where a word can be equivocated and if you don't have careful eyes you can get caught in the trap.

The scripture says nothing about the great multitude residing in heaven.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #59

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:52 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #51]

You say JWs butcher the verse at Luke 23:43? No, we just place the comma AFTER "today." That is all. It has to be after "today" because Jesus was dead for three days before he was resurrected, and then he was on the earth for 40 or 50 more days before ascending to heaven. So you don't believe that Jesus was really dead for three days?

The thief had the understanding that it would be some time before Jesus "got into his Kingdom." (Luke 23:42) He was right. It would be some time before Jesus would start ruling as King. He didn't expect to be anywhere that day. So how did we "butcher" that verse, Venom? The position of the comma has great significance, and you must know that there is no punctuation in the Greek language, so the comma is added at the discretion of the translator. There are more good reasons for placing the comma AFTER "today" than there are for placing it before "today."

.
No, no, no!!!

Sure, there is a comma after "today", but that small comma changes the entire context!!

This is the New World's Translation (NWT) of the verse..Luke 23:43

43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.

Compare that to over 50 other translations/versions..

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2023:43

All other translations, the verse states..

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Compare..

NWT: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.
NIV: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

One comma changes the entire context.

You see, JW's don't believe in life after death nor the immortality of the spirit. So, scriptures which clearly suggests that there is life after death becomes problematic for JW's, as such is the case with Luke 23:43.

So what they did was; they made minor little changes in their NWT, which have major impact on, let's says a novice's understanding of what he/she will read.

Now, as far as Luke 23:43 is concerned, they placed the comma after today, to make it seem as if Jesus is saying "I am telling you right here, right now, you will be with me in paradise" (at some point in the distant future).

As opposed to just letting Jesus/the verse speak for itself, as Jesus is saying "I am telling you right here, right now, that today you will be with me in paradise" (literally, today...not thousands of years from now, but today).

This is a sleight of hand Biblical trick...very deceptive, very conniving.

Greek interlinear as well..

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInt ... /luk23.pdf
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #60

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:43 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #51]
When Jesus "gave up his spirit," what he gave up was the breath of life that God gave him to keep him breathing.
That would be a fine theological answer...and I would have no problem with it, if it weren't for other scriptures (which I shared) which suggests that he gave up more than his breath, but rather he gave up his immaterial self.

The case is not built off just one scripture, but rather multiple scriptures which allows us to draw one cohesive conclusion.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:43 pm It was God's holy spirit by which Jehovah accomplishes what He wants to do, and how He keeps living things alive. That is the spirit that Jesus gave up. It didn't keep him breathing any more.
.
Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...again, this harmonizes with what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, where Jesus told the thief that the thief will be present with him in paradise after they died.

Those two scriptures have more harmony than Bone Thugs.

If, when you die, you simply cease to exist (as JW's believe), then you will have no presence anywhere.

But both Paul and Jesus testified that you will indeed have a presence after you die.
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