Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Eloi
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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Post by Eloi »

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Post by Mattathias »

I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. A transformed body in some ways but nevertheless a body of flesh and bones. He could be seen and touched. He was recognizable. I presume his height post-resurrection is his height pre-resurrection.

Do you not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus in particular and bodily resurrection of others in general?
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #3

Post by Eloi »

There is a very interesting biblical passage that clarifies for us that matter of the appearances of Jesus. Notice:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

Can you understand why Jesus most of the time (after being resurrected and before ascended) he remained in his new condition of invisible spiritual being?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #4

Post by Mattathias »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:16 pm There is a very interesting biblical passage that clarifies for us that matter of the appearances of Jesus. Notice:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

Can you understand why Jesus most of the time (after being resurrected and before ascended) he remained in his new condition of invisible spiritual being?
What is the JW position in regard to periods of time when he wasn’t seen in his resurrected body?
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #5

Post by Eloi »

Mattathias wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:34 pm
Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:16 pm There is a very interesting biblical passage that clarifies for us that matter of the appearances of Jesus. Notice:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

Can you understand why Jesus most of the time (after being resurrected and before ascended) he remained in his new condition of invisible spiritual being?
What is the JW position in regard to periods of time when he wasn’t seen in his resurrected body?
He was still on earth, but he was maintaining his new spirit body without "materializing" a body of flesh to be seen by his disciples. The passage quoted in the previous post shows that he only did this procedure to make himself visible to those that God had chosen from before to see him resurrected.

Do you remember some of the appearances of angels in bodies of flesh in ancient times? The same thing happened with those appearances. In fact, some biblical scholars consider that many of those appearances of angels in the form of human bodies were those of Jesus himself when, before he was born as a human, he lived in heaven as a spirit.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that he did it also after having given his human life and being resurrected with the form he had before he was born here?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #6

Post by Mattathias »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:16 pmHe was still on earth, but he was maintaining his new spirit body without "materializing" a body of flesh to be seen by his disciples. The passage quoted in the previous post shows that he only did this procedure to make himself visible to those that God had chosen from before to see him resurrected.

Do you remember some of the appearances of angels in bodies of flesh in ancient times? The same thing happened with those appearances. In fact, some biblical scholars consider that many of those appearances of angels in the form of human bodies were those of Jesus himself when, before he was born as a human, he lived in heaven as a spirit.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that he did it also after having given his human life and being resurrected with the form he had before he was born here?
I don’t think most people have difficulty understanding what you’re presenting. (I’m saying that the issue is believing, not understanding.) You believe, as do most people, in literal preexistence. Reverting to a preexisting form has a certain logic to it. In your theology, if I’ve understood it properly, Jesus returns to the form he previously held had as an archangel (Michael). While sharing your belief in literal preexistence, most people don’t share the JW belief that Jesus preexisted as an angel.

I don’t believe Jesus literally preexisted. I believe in what is known as notional, or ideal, preexistence - that he was foreknown in the plan and purpose of God and was brought into being / existence by a miraculous act of God in the womb of a virgin.

Whereas you and I should be able to agree that Jesus was created - I acknowledge that most people don’t believe that he was created - we disagree on when, where and how that event happened.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #7

Post by Eloi »

I, personally speaking, would not talk about our beliefs as a "theology". If we have a better understanding of what the Bible teaches about a spe ific issue, we just rectify what we believe (2 Tim. 3:16,17) since we are always students of the Bible ... being so, we will always prove what we believe with the Scriptures.

That was just a note. I'll be out of the forum for some time. Have a good day.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #8

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Eloi,

“Eloi said:

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

My response: The following is your “private interpretation and is not supported by scripture.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:




My next response: You incorrectly quoted 1 Timothy 3:16

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’


My response: KJV 1 Timothy3:
16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

My response: According to the KJV it is quoted thus:

KJV9:
14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

My response to the above:

KJV 15:
44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Perhaps a clear understanding of the above may shed further light on the subject)

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...


My response:

KJV 1 Peter:
12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13
And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

You should be aware of what Peter is teaching here in 1 Peter.

Indeed he was put to death in the body, but the body was also resurrected and rejoined to his spirit when he went to preach unto the spirits in the spirit prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah.

You should also remember the he told Mary to touch him not for he had not yet ascended unto his Father.


Matthew 28:
9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10
Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.


Luke 24:
37
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43
And he took it, and did eat before them.


KJV 20:
16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

My response: We should also remember that ALL POWER WAS GIVEN HIM ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN. Having said that it is obvious that HE WAS GOD THE SON. For all judgment was given unto him. I would ask the question “ are men to be judged by GOD or Man?”

KJV John 21:
25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

My response: “I would also ask the question regarding the above quote. If all these other thing with Jesus did were revealed today, would you accept or reject them?”

I also have 2 additional questions for you to answer.

Does God the Father have a body of flesh and bones?

2. Does Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #9

Post by onewithhim »

Mattathias wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:01 pm I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. A transformed body in some ways but nevertheless a body of flesh and bones. He could be seen and touched. He was recognizable. I presume his height post-resurrection is his height pre-resurrection.

Do you not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus in particular and bodily resurrection of others in general?
Jesus was not raised with a physical body.....if he had been, it would be like taking back his sacrifice. We would all still be in our sins. He gave up his human life so that we could live forever as humans on this earth (as was God's purpose in the beginning). Jesus could not have a physical body of flesh and bones in heaven anyway because those things cannot be in heaven. (If flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom in heaven, then flesh and bones cannot either! "Flesh" being the operative word here.)

The majority of mankind who will be resurrected back to standing up on the earth will have a physical bodily resurrection. It is only those who are taken to heaven who will have a spirit body.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #10

Post by Sheila D »

as 1st Corinthians 15:50 says - flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven. No, I do not believe earthly flesh and blood or bones are in heaven or can enter. As long as Jesus was on Earth he maintained his earthly body _ once he ascended he took on his true form.
When it is written we will see him decend as we seen him ascend, that speaking specifically of ascending and descending not how he looks or what his body consists of.
1st John 3:2 tells us we will be as he is - we will see him as he truly is when he returns.

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