Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Eloi
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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #51

Post by Eloi »

The fact that Jesus appeared in bodies of flesh to make himself visible DOES NOT MEAN that his new body was visible, but JUST the opposite: if his body had been made of flesh and bones, he would never have made himself invisible with his disciples. But Scripture explains:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.

PD: I just read the thread I am involved with ... I do not read back every time someone wants me to do. This is a dialog, not a "look for what I said".

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #52

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:10 pm
The fact that Jesus appeared in bodies of flesh to make himself visible DOES NOT MEAN that his new body was visible, but JUST the opposite: if his body had been made of flesh and bones, he would never have made himself invisible with his disciples.
I could appreciate this point if Christians believed that Jesus' resurrected body was ordinay flesh and bones.

But that's not what they believe. They believe Jesus' frail, mortal body was transformed into an extraordinary, supernatural body that now has new properties that allow it to do things an ordinary body cannot (see post #27).
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:10 pm
Scripture explains:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.
Yeah, that seems perfectly consistent with what Christians believe.
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:10 pm
I just read the thread I am involved with ... I do not read back every time someone wants me to do. This is a dialog, not a "look for what I said".
That's certainly fair. But, in case you missed it, post #27 and post #30 are directed to you as the author of the OP.

Feel free to respond to those at your earliest convenience, as it would greatly enhance our dialog.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #53

Post by myth-one.com »

historia wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:17 pm You have decided, for example, to interpret the word "spiritual" to mean 'made out of spirit,' but that is simply mistaken.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I do not know what a spiritual body is made out of -- nor do I care.

The dead bodies of Christians are buried as natural bodies.

The bodies which Christians will be resurrected with are spiritual bodies.

That is God's decision, not mine.

I don't care if it's "made out of Spirit".

Deceased believers will be born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming with "spiritual bodies" according to the Bible.

Since that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, it seems obvious that they are spirits

==================================================
Historia wrote:When Paul talks about the "spiritual" person here, obviously he doesn't mean a person made out of spirit. He means a person oriented toward the Spirit of God, in contrast to the "natural" person, who is oriented towards his or her own human nature.
So deceased believers are simply resurrected with a new "orientation toward the Spirit of God"?


If so, then you are claiming that living Christians are not now oriented toward the Spirit of God!

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #54

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:44 pm(...) But that's not what they believe. They believe Jesus' frail, mortal body was transformed into an extraordinary, supernatural body that now has new properties that allow it to do things an ordinary body cannot (...)
But not closing some holes in the hands? :?

If Thomas had seen Jesus with his old body (and he knew him very well), it would not have even been necessary to show him any holes in the hands.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #55

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:57 pm In addition to Luke 24:39-40 (see post #27), it seems to me the other key biblical passage on this topic is 1 Corinthians 15:35-53.

A portion of that text was cited in the OP. Here it is again, with a slight modification:
Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am
1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a psychikos body; it is raised up a pneumatikos body. If there is a psychikos body, there is also a pneumatikos one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a psyche.” The last Adam became a life-giving pneuma.
The key terms Paul employs here are psychikos and pneumatikos. The root words for those terms are psyche (soul) and pneuma (spirit), respectively, which Paul also employs here.

Paul contrasts these same terms earlier in 1 Corinthians:
1 Cor. 2:13 wrote:
The natural (psychikos) person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual (pneumatikos) person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
When Paul talks about the "spiritual" person here, obviously he doesn't mean a person made out of spirit. He means a person oriented toward the Spirit of God, in contrast to the "natural" person, who is oriented towards his or her own human nature.
No, Paul was talking about a spirit body. He is comparing physical with spirit bodies, not physical and spiritual-but-physical bodies. Physical = "natural." Spirit = "spiritual." He said they start out in a physical body and then they will gain a spirit body when they go to heaven. Why do you complicate a very simple teaching? Flesh and bones cannot go to heaven, just as flesh and blood cannot. The operative word is "flesh." The anointed will be like Jesus---a powerful spirit person. Jesus Christ---"the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16) Paul and the other anointed ones will be like that.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #56

Post by onewithhim »

Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:10 pm The fact that Jesus appeared in bodies of flesh to make himself visible DOES NOT MEAN that his new body was visible, but JUST the opposite: if his body had been made of flesh and bones, he would never have made himself invisible with his disciples. But Scripture explains:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.

PD: I just read the thread I am involved with ... I do not read back every time someone wants me to do. This is a dialog, not a "look for what I said".
Further.....If his body had been flesh and bones he would not have been able to get through the door which had been locked! (John 20:19,26)

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #57

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:52 pm
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:10 pm The fact that Jesus appeared in bodies of flesh to make himself visible DOES NOT MEAN that his new body was visible, but JUST the opposite: if his body had been made of flesh and bones, he would never have made himself invisible with his disciples. But Scripture explains:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.

PD: I just read the thread I am involved with ... I do not read back every time someone wants me to do. This is a dialog, not a "look for what I said".
Further.....If his body had been flesh and bones he would not have been able to get through the door which had been locked! (John 20:19,26)

.
Jesus stated that He was flesh and bones after His resurrection:
Luke 24:39 wrote:Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Was Jesus lying?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #58

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:04 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:52 pm
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:10 pm The fact that Jesus appeared in bodies of flesh to make himself visible DOES NOT MEAN that his new body was visible, but JUST the opposite: if his body had been made of flesh and bones, he would never have made himself invisible with his disciples. But Scripture explains:

Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.

PD: I just read the thread I am involved with ... I do not read back every time someone wants me to do. This is a dialog, not a "look for what I said".
Further.....If his body had been flesh and bones he would not have been able to get through the door which had been locked! (John 20:19,26)

.
Jesus stated that He was flesh and bones after His resurrection:
Luke 24:39 wrote:Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Was Jesus lying?
He was simply trying to assure them that it was he and not an apparition. There is no way he could have come through the locked doors with a solid physical body.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #59

Post by Eloi »

myth-one.com wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:04 pm (...) Jesus stated that He was flesh and bones after His resurrection:
Luke 24:39 wrote:Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Was Jesus lying?
No, the one who lies is you.

Jesus said that IN THAT MOMENT BEING WITH THEM he had flesh and bones ... Not that "he was flesh and bones after his resurrection", as you say.

That Jesus has become visible with bodies of flesh DOES NOT MEAN that his new body was made of flesh. Otherwise he would have remained visible to his disciples all the time ... but as you read in Acts. 10:40,41, he was only allowed to appear that way to his disciples and to no one else.

Angels did the same in the past (in Judges 13 you have a good example). Angels HAVE NOT a body of flesh, even if they ate with men sometimes. Those stories of angels that appeared in ancient times with bodies of flesh and appeared to be natural men, were very well known to all Jews ... and also to all Christians, in the First Century and now. When the disciples saw Jesus appear and disappear, they knew very well what it was all about.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #60

Post by historia »

myth-one.com wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:13 pm
I do not know what a spiritual body is made out of
Okay, but that's not what you said earlier:
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:21 pm
historia wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:57 pm
Likewise, when Paul talks of the "spiritual" body in 15:44, he is not talking about a body made out of spirit.
Yes, he absolutely is!
Seems like you've changed your mind. Good!
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:21 pm
historia wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:57 pm
When Paul talks about the "spiritual" person here, obviously he doesn't mean a person made out of spirit. He means a person oriented toward the Spirit of God, in contrast to the "natural" person, who is oriented towards his or her own human nature.
So deceased believers are simply resurrected with a new "orientation toward the Spirit of God"?
No, what I wrote earlier was this:
historia wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:57 pm
He is contrasting a body animated by the soul (psyche) with one animated by the Spirit (pneuma) (of God).
The Greek word pneumatikos generally means 'pertaining to the spirit (or wind)'. To understand it's specific meaning, you have to look at how it is being used in context.

What it cannot mean, though, is 'made of spirit'. Greek adjectives that end with the suffix -ikos do not refer to what something is made of. If you want to describe what something is made of, you use an adjective with the suffix -inos.

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