Not Needed By God

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William
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Not Needed By God

Post #1

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:02 am
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:55 pm

The very idea that יהוה doesn't need assistance flies in the face of all the biblical stories told. Surely you are misrepresenting יהוה in that regard.
There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them. The bible repeatedly refers to Jehovah as the Almighty, so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants. If Jehovah delegates its an expression of his love and mercy as the righteous view it as a privilege to be used by God.
QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?



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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #81

Post by William »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:27 pm
William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:09 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #72]
Jehovah doesn't need human worship to exist.
Strawman.
Nope. You said "I took the example of the biblical idea that BG requires worship from human beings." in post 69.
That statement is not is an error, it is not a Biblical idea and I was correcting it. It is not requirement for Him.
Then it is besides the point, and simple a case of going off track from the actual thread topic and QFD.

If the BG does not require worship then human worship of the BG is surplus to requirement.

Search "does the god of the bible require worship?"

Does God Demand Worship?

God Rejects Cain’s Offering (Worship)


Why would someone who does not require worship, accept or reject worship from humans?

The act of interacting with humans at all shows clearly that an AME cannot interact with humans unless humans exist to be interacted with.

which ties back into the QFD showing that an almighty being can NOT do everything "without the assistance of anything".
Last edited by William on Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #82

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:09 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #72]
Jehovah doesn't need human worship to exist.
Strawman.

The QFD is not to do with what an AME would need to exist.
Only what one must have to exist is needed, by anyone and everything. Something wanted is not needed. Example need: I need shelter to live. Example want: I want a penthouse.

While I do need shelter to live I don't need a penthouse to live.

The Almighty God doesn't need anything. He is dependent on nothing.

This is why I said many posts ago your idea of what is needed is quite difference from what others call a need. The definition of what you call a 'need' is skewed based on what is wanted.

Simply put, everything God does is a want, a product of His will.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #83

Post by William »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:55 pm
William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:09 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #72]
Jehovah doesn't need human worship to exist.
Strawman.

The QFD is not to do with what an AME would need to exist.
Only what one must have to exist is needed, by anyone and everything. Something wanted is not needed. Example need: I need shelter to live. Example want: I want a penthouse.

While I do need shelter to live I don't need a penthouse to live.

The Almighty God doesn't need anything. He is dependent on nothing.

This is why I said many posts ago your idea of what is needed is quite difference from what others call a need. The definition of what you call a 'need' is skewed based on what is wanted.

Simply put, everything God does is a want, a product of His will.
Part of the claim made by the Christian was that;
There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.
So it gets down to that. If the BG has a purpose which requires accomplishing, then the need is in the requirement and the requirement is in the need.

Saying 'it is just what he wants" in only underlining the purpose and therein, the need.

Saying "the Almighty God doesn't need anything" and saying "the Almighty God just wants something" is different to that, is misleading.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #84

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:09 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:55 pm
William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:09 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #72]
Jehovah doesn't need human worship to exist.
Strawman.

The QFD is not to do with what an AME would need to exist.
Only what one must have to exist is needed, by anyone and everything. Something wanted is not needed. Example need: I need shelter to live. Example want: I want a penthouse.

While I do need shelter to live I don't need a penthouse to live.

The Almighty God doesn't need anything. He is dependent on nothing.

This is why I said many posts ago your idea of what is needed is quite difference from what others call a need. The definition of what you call a 'need' is skewed based on what is wanted.

Simply put, everything God does is a want, a product of His will.
Part of the claim made by the Christian was that;
There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.
So it gets down to that. If the BG has a purpose which requires accomplishing, then the need is in the requirement and the requirement is in the need.

Saying 'it is just what he wants" in only underlining the purpose and therein, the need.
But need by whom? Give an example where Jehovah needs someone to do something that He couldn't do Himself.
Saying "the Almighty God doesn't need anything" and saying "the Almighty God just wants something" is different to that, is misleading.
Only because you don't accept the term Almighty. So yes, as long as you cling to your personal definition of need, it will continue to be a head stretcher.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #85

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #84]
Saying "the Almighty God doesn't need anything" and saying "the Almighty God just wants something" is different to that, is misleading.
Only because you don't accept the term Almighty.
For the purpose of this discussion I have indeed accepted the term. It means Omnipotent.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #86

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #84]
Give an example where Jehovah needs someone to do something that He couldn't do Himself.
Why should I do that? It was not my claim that there are no biblical stories where BG has "needed assistance". Nor was it my claim that BG needs no one to accomplish his purpose.

You are better to ask the one who made the claim.

It was the claim made which prompted me to ask the QFD.

Give an example where Jehovah doesn't need something to do something that He could do Himself.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #87

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:44 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #84]
Saying "the Almighty God doesn't need anything" and saying "the Almighty God just wants something" is different to that, is misleading.
Only because you don't accept the term Almighty.
For the purpose of this discussion I have indeed accepted the term. It means Omnipotent.
It also means all powerful. Meaning there is nothing beyond His power. No one holds more power than Him. He doesn't need anyone else's power to get anything done. If asks someone to do something, He doesn't need someone to do it, He wants someone to do it.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #88

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:50 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #84]
Give an example where Jehovah needs someone to do something that He couldn't do Himself.
Why should I do that? It was not my claim that there are no biblical stories where BG has "needed assistance". Nor was it my claim that BG needs no one to accomplish his purpose.

You are better to ask the one who made the claim.

It was the claim made which prompted me to ask the QFD.

Give an example where Jehovah doesn't need something to do something that He could do Himself.
I can't argue for both of us.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #89

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:50 pm
Give an example where Jehovah doesn't need something to do something that He could do Himself.
Every example. Think up anything and Jehovah doesn't need anyone to do it.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #90

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #87]
For the purpose of this discussion I have indeed accepted the term. It means Omnipotent.
It also means all powerful.
What do you mean 'also'? That is what omnipotent means - "all powerful"
Meaning there is nothing beyond His power.
If being all-powerful was all that was required, there would be no need to say "BG is also omnipresent and omniscient"
No one holds more power than Him.
If nothing else existed then how would that ever be known? Does BG need anyone to believe that no one holds more power than him? If so, then he would have to create someone to perform that role.

He doesn't need anyone else's power to get anything done.
Why then do other things exist with their own power to do things?
If asks someone to do something, He doesn't need someone to do it, He wants someone to do it.
Can he want something to do something without first creating that something to do it? Apparently the claim is that an AME can indeed want something to do something without first creating that something to do that something.

But is wanting something the same as getting something...we all can want something and not get that something we want...so there is more to getting something than simply wanting something.

If an AME wants a human, it first has to figure out how to get a human. In the case of the biblical story, this involved first making Earth-dust and then shaping it into a form and then breathing life into that object.

It literally needed those things in order to then get a human in order to ask the human to do something. The idea that it could have gotten that something, without asking a human to get that something, so without creating a human, so without creating stuff in which to create the human, flees in the face of logic.

The idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, is not logically sound.

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