A SPIRIT WORLD

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Eloi
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A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

The Bible shows that our material world was second in order of existence. The first inhabited world that existed was a world that is invisible to us, but is inhabited by millions of intelligent beings.

The Bible places it in the heavens, but since our physical concepts of dimensions are based on the way we look at the world, it might as well be something like a different dimension, where "above", "below", "before " and "behind" may have a different meaning, or none at all.

Jesus told his apostles that he would take them wherever he was going next. He told them that he would prepare a place for them, because according to him "in the house of [his] Father there are many abodes."

John 14:1 “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. ..."

We, Jehovah's Witnesses know that although the spirits do not have bodies of flesh and blood like us, they have another kind of body with which they distinguish themselves as individuals in that kind of world where they live. We call that kind of body a "spiritual body," as the Scripture calls it. We believe that the Logos of God, who was later born as Jesus, had such a body next to God. Do you agree?

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:20 pm
theophile wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm
[3] intelligent No, I disagree with this one.
God is a spirit, so you dont think God is intelligent ?
theophile wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm Spirits are in themselves powerless ...
God is a spirit, so you think Him "powerless"?



In Genesis 1:2 (and I would argue anywhere God speaks in the bible) we see the spirit of God, not necessarily God.


So when the bible says "God is (a) spirit" is it speaking about God or not? What do you think it means? Is it referring to an intelligent powerful individual or not?

1 PETER 3:19 - Berean Study Bible

in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison
Where the spirits that were preached to intelligent or not? If not, why preach to them ?





Who are these "ministering spirits" sent by God? And why are they spoken of in the PLURAL as if there were more than one?
HEBREWS 1:14 English Standard Version

Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?


What are angels? Are they intelligent ?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #22

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:29 am
theophile wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:20 pm
theophile wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm
[3] intelligent No, I disagree with this one.
God is a spirit, so you dont think God is intelligent ?
theophile wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm Spirits are in themselves powerless ...
God is a spirit, so you think Him "powerless"?
In Genesis 1:2 (and I would argue anywhere God speaks in the bible) we see the spirit of God, not necessarily God.
So when the bible says "God is (a) spirit" is it speaking about God or not? What do you think it means? Is it referring to an intelligent powerful individual or not?
Where does the bible say that "God is (a) spirit"? The bible speaks of the spirit of God, or of being in the spirit, but that doesn't mean God is (a) spirit. (I could be wrong on this - would be good to know what verse makes such a clear statement if it exists.)

But like I said before, I tend to 'black box' God beyond spirit. So we really don't have much of an argument here.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:29 am
1 PETER 3:19 - Berean Study Bible

in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison
Where the spirits that were preached to intelligent or not? If not, why preach to them ?

Who are these "ministering spirits" sent by God? And why are they spoken of in the PLURAL as if there were more than one?
What do you think a spirit is? Something like a ghost? A conscious, intelligent being?

Per before, this is a question of literal versus symbolic, and I think examples of spirits conversing is more the latter. It is part of the bible's anthropomorphizing of all things. (Should we honestly believe that a serpent actually conversed with Eve? ...)

As to why a spirit would minister to other spirits, or certain spirits would be imprisoned, it's because of what a spirit is. Or what they are capable of. If I'm right, and spirit is akin to word (e.g., the Word), it means that spirits have a relationship to ideas, or even ideologies. Like the spirit of capitalism for instance. As such, they can be dangerous (and may need to be contained). They can also contend with other spirits. For example, the spirit of God and the spirit of capitalism may collide...

So spirits conversing with spirits is to be expected.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:29 am What are angels? Are they intelligent ?
As the verse you cited from Hebrews says, they are ministering spirits :)

So no. I think they can convey intelligence, but they are not intelligent.

Curious though, what do you make of John 1:1? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I'm just taking it really seriously what it means once we reduce spirit (or God even, if God is spirit) down to the order of 'word'.

(What innate power do you think the Word has beyond any other word?...)

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 pm

Where does the bible say that "God is (a) spirit"?
JOHN 4:24 King James Bible

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
.
Various other translations
https://biblehub.com/john/4-24.htm
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:29 am What are angels? Are they intelligent ?
As the verse you cited from Hebrews says, they are ministering spirits
  • Why do spirits they have names?
  • In what sense is one of them a great Prince that has angels under his command?
  • When an angel is reported to have killed 185,000 soldiers, did the soldiers really die or just run out of ideas?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm :

[1 and 2] organized and hierarchical: Depends I assume such verses as those from Job howings divine councils and the children of God jumping for joy in response to creation are the best evidence. The problem is that the children of God in these scenes are ones like Christ: they are the perfect union of spiritual and material being.
This is "begging the question", you are presenting the premise of the question as the basis for the anwser.
Effectively saying spirits cannot be non-physical intellgent beings because they must be like Christ, who was a physical intelligent being. This is like arguing "My wife cannot be female because she must be like my brother who is male".
In short : You have not actually presented a counterargument
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:09 pm There is no third option, so whatever you are calling a "different" pre-existing " cosmic ocean" must either be in the invisible spirit realm or part of our physical carbon based (earthly) universe. Since (through Jesus) all things that exist were created by God, and the bible calls whereever this invisible spirit God is... HEAVEN, the ONLY realm can have existed for endless ions is spiritual.
The deep/sea/waters were never created by God (or if they were, show me where). So 'water' is a third ontological category (arguably) on top of the heavenly and earthly bodies you referenced above.
Emphasis MINE

HEAVENLY BODIES = NON PHYSICAL

No, the heavenly bodies are all non physical things, the only uncreated of which is YHWH God himself. Where he is equals the spiritual (spiritual being defined as non-physical) realm. Now, I take it you put "water" in quote marks because you are not speaking about literal physical H2O but "something". Let us call your special "water" => [X]

  • X existed prior to and physical creation
  • X is where God lives

Unless he was homeless for a period...
  • X is infinite and has no beginning


X therefore = > God's permanent place of abode that is seperate and distinct from anything created
What word did Jesus use for X?
MATTHEW 6 VERSE 9

"Our Father, who art in ...[X] "
You call it special uncreated water, Jesus called it HEAVEN.


QUESTION: But doesnt "heaven" ALWAYS refer to the highest extremity of the physical universe ?


No, this cannot be, because God has no beginning, so where he is must also have no beginning. . His realm (his eternal field of activity) cannot be the heavens of Genesis 1:1 because they are spoken of as being created, and all created things are infinite. So whatever "heaven" Jesus was refering to was not the created "heavens" of Genesis 1:1.
Thus de have two heavens one physical (the CREATED stars, planets ect ) and one spiritual (Gods eternal UNCREATED home).What you are calling special uncreated "water" is in fact the "heaven" of Matthew 6 verse 9.





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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #27

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:23 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 pm
Where does the bible say that "God is (a) spirit"?
JOHN 4:24 King James Bible

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
.
Various other translations
https://biblehub.com/john/4-24.htm
Thanks for the reference. Like I said, fine by me, as I don't assume anything of God other than spirit anyways :)

Linking with John 1:1, which is arguably the more pivotal verse, it actually cements my point that spirit / word have a strong affinity...

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #28

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:56 pm
theophile wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm :

[1 and 2] organized and hierarchical: Depends I assume such verses as those from Job howings divine councils and the children of God jumping for joy in response to creation are the best evidence. The problem is that the children of God in these scenes are ones like Christ: they are the perfect union of spiritual and material being.
This is "begging the question", you are presenting the premise of the question as the basis for the anwser.
Effectively saying spirits cannot be non-physical intellgent beings because they must be like Christ, who was a physical intelligent being. This is like arguing "My wife cannot be female because she must be like my brother who is male".
In short : You have not actually presented a counterargument
No, I said that the "children of God" are ones like Christ, not that spirits are. Christ / the Children of God are those in whom the Spirit is made flesh. They are, to my point, the perfect union of spirit and matter.

My point here was more that evidence for "organization and hierarchy" tends to involve hybrid beings, not purely spiritual ones. Hence we can't really use such examples to say that the purely spiritual is organized / hierarchical. (I'm not saying you can't find evidence, I'm sure you can, but only that the divine councils, etc, involving the Children of God don't quite cut it because of the hybrid nature of those involved.

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:19 am
Linking with John 1:1, which is arguably the more pivotal verse, it actually cements my point that spirit / word have a strong affinity...
What do you mean? Do you mean God has no intelligence power or self determination?
  • In what way is man (intelligent beings with a measure of power) made in Gods image?
  • In what way did Jesus the man (with the above qualities) an exact representation of God ?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #30

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 am
theophile wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:09 pm There is no third option, so whatever you are calling a "different" pre-existing " cosmic ocean" must either be in the invisible spirit realm or part of our physical carbon based (earthly) universe. Since (through Jesus) all things that exist were created by God, and the bible calls whereever this invisible spirit God is... HEAVEN, the ONLY realm can have existed for endless ions is spiritual.
The deep/sea/waters were never created by God (or if they were, show me where). So 'water' is a third ontological category (arguably) on top of the heavenly and earthly bodies you referenced above.
Emphasis MINE

HEAVENLY BODIES = NON PHYSICAL

No, the heavenly bodies are all non physical things, the only uncreated of which is YHWH God himself. Where he is equals the spiritual (spiritual being defined as non-physical) realm. Now, I take it you put "water" in quote marks because you are not speaking about literal physical H2O but "something". Let us call your special "water" => [X]
The heavens are contained within the deep per Genesis 1. But this goes to the heart of our difference. You think that 'heaven' has two meanings, while I think it has just one. Also, is there a reference that says heavenly bodies are non-physical? I know you cited a point that they are non-visible, but that is not the same thing...

But you're right, I don't actually think 'the deep' is water in the sense of H2O. So happy to treat it as a variable for now...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 am
  • X existed prior to and physical creation
  • X is where God lives

Unless he was homeless for a period...
  • X is infinite and has no beginning


X therefore = > God's permanent place of abode that is seperate and distinct from anything created
I generally agree with what you're saying here. I made some adjustments to it below...
  • X existed prior to creation
  • X is where God lived
Unless he was homeless for a period...
  • X has no known beginning - presumably an infinite regress
X therefore = > God's place of abode prior to creation that is separate and distinct from anything created [/color]

I would also suggest, per the conclusion there, that God makes a new abode in heaven post creation, and eventually (to my point above) on earth.

You could almost envision creation as God making a new home for Godself (and all other life) in the heavens and on the earth.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 am What word did Jesus use for X?
Well that's a good question. The sea is the best metaphor in the gospels but there could be others. i.e., Jesus calming the sea / walking on water is much like God hovering over the deep in Genesis 1.

I would also suggest that the 'abyss / bottomless pit' and 'dragon' of Revelation are fallen (/twisted) versions of the deep and what it contains. 'The deep' in Hebrew is 'tehom', which shares etymology with 'Tiamat', the Mesopotamian dragon goddess of the sea in the Enuma Elish.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 amMATTHEW 6 VERSE 9

"Our Father, who art in ...[X] "
You call it special uncreated water, Jesus called it HEAVEN.[/quote]

Yah, no. Per above, things change at the point of Genesis 1. Before, it is God and the deep. After, I agree with you that God 'resides' in heaven with the rest of God's creation. Again, all surrounded by the deep / bottomless pit :)
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 am QUESTION: But doesnt "heaven" ALWAYS refer to the highest extremity of the physical universe ?
No, this cannot be, because God has no beginning, so where he is must also have no beginning. . His realm (his eternal field of activity) cannot be the heavens of Genesis 1:1 because they are spoken of as being created, and all created things are infinite. So whatever "heaven" Jesus was referring to was not the created "heavens" of Genesis 1:1.
Thus de have two heavens one physical (the CREATED stars, planets ect ) and one spiritual (Gods eternal UNCREATED home).What you are calling special uncreated "water" is in fact the "heaven" of Matthew 6 verse 9.
Do you not see how the above resolves this conundrum without requiring a double meaning for heaven? You're looking for an eternal dwelling place for God. I think the bible is clear that God's dwelling place changes over time.

From the deep / abyss to the heavens God created in Genesis 1, and then from the heavens to the earth with humankind in the end times per Revelation.

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