A SPIRIT WORLD

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Eloi
Guru
Posts: 1163
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 127 times

A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

The Bible shows that our material world was second in order of existence. The first inhabited world that existed was a world that is invisible to us, but is inhabited by millions of intelligent beings.

The Bible places it in the heavens, but since our physical concepts of dimensions are based on the way we look at the world, it might as well be something like a different dimension, where "above", "below", "before " and "behind" may have a different meaning, or none at all.

Jesus told his apostles that he would take them wherever he was going next. He told them that he would prepare a place for them, because according to him "in the house of [his] Father there are many abodes."

John 14:1 “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. ..."

We, Jehovah's Witnesses know that although the spirits do not have bodies of flesh and blood like us, they have another kind of body with which they distinguish themselves as individuals in that kind of world where they live. We call that kind of body a "spiritual body," as the Scripture calls it. We believe that the Logos of God, who was later born as Jesus, had such a body next to God. Do you agree?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18134
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 437 times
Been thanked: 671 times
Contact:

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:04 pm
I would also suggest, per the conclusion there, that God makes a new abode in heaven post creation, and eventually (to my point above) on earth.
theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:04 pmI think the bible is clear that God's dwelling place changes over time.
I am not concerned whether he moved house; being infinite, even if at some point YJWH (God) moved to live elsewhere, going back endlessly in the past God resided in his uncreated realm. Whatever you choose to call it, it is distinct and different from that which was created (whether seen or unseen ). So let us forget about water and even heaven for now and call God's original home /abode his uncreated realm.

You recognise I presume my point that the heavens of Genesis 1:1 were created, so it cannot be talking about said "uncreated realm" where he's lived since before all time


WHAT SHALL WE CALL X ? "WATER" OR "HEAVEN"?



Having established that the physical visible HEAVENS of Genesis1:1 cannot by definition be God's original "uncreated realm" it seems reasonable to search the scriptures and see what words are specifically used to describe God's home. If its "water" fine let us accept that...., if its X fine, if it's "the shed at the end of Nebuchadnezzar garden" ....FINE! And if its heaven, then we will have to accept at least two different heavens - the heaven in question would be uncreated and we already have a Genesis 1:1 created heaven.
We are not going to reject as too complicated the idea if the same word being applied to two different things ( one created and one non-created). After all unless you are going to claim H20 is uncreated, that exactly what you believe regarding the word WATER In short we are going to end up with two heavens or two waters!

So ...remind me of the case (scriptural support ) for calling God's original uncreated home "water" rather than "heaven"?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #32

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]
We, Jehovah's Witnesses know that although the spirits do not have bodies of flesh and blood like us, they have another kind of body with which they distinguish themselves as individuals in that kind of world where they live. We call that kind of body a "spiritual body," as the Scripture calls it. We believe that the Logos of God, who was later born as Jesus, had such a body next to God. Do you agree?


I stepped on the Logos of god once - hurt like a mo-fo! :D
While I don't agree any person (jesus or otherwise) is any deity, full or in part, I can get behind the above bolded section as a possibility for sure! While I don't know what a spirit or ghost is, exactly, I believe it's possible for them to exist and be experienced. But, of course, I - like everyone else - can't prove it.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #33

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:14 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:04 pm
I would also suggest, per the conclusion there, that God makes a new abode in heaven post creation, and eventually (to my point above) on earth.
theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:04 pmI think the bible is clear that God's dwelling place changes over time.
I am not concerned whether he moved house; being infinite, even if at some point YJWH (God) moved to live elsewhere, going back endlessly in the past God resided in his uncreated realm. Whatever you choose to call it, it is distinct and different from that which was created (whether seen or unseen ). So let us forget about water and even heaven for now and call God's original home /abode his uncreated realm.

You recognise I presume my point that the heavens of Genesis 1:1 were created, so it cannot be talking about said "uncreated realm" where he's lived since before all time
Yup that is all reasonable.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:14 pm WHAT SHALL WE CALL X ? "WATER" OR "HEAVEN"?

Having established that the physical visible HEAVENS of Genesis1:1 cannot by definition be God's original "uncreated realm" it seems reasonable to search the scriptures and see what words are specifically used to describe God's home. If its "water" fine let us accept that...., if its X fine, if it's "the shed at the end of Nebuchadnezzar garden" ....FINE! And if its heaven, then we will have to accept at least two different heavens - the heaven in question would be uncreated and we already have a Genesis 1:1 created heaven.
A few points...

1) Let's make the question "HEAVEN" or "THE DEEP" (not "WATER"). I would distinguish between these two terms to clarify my position. The deep is more like the opening/abyss that the waters occupy. Can talk more about the water later but "the deep" provides a better comparison to heaven (the two terms are more similar in kind).

2) God's home does change in the bible (so we'll get multiple answers depending where we look). It is first in this primordial deep / heaven before Genesis 1. It is second in the heavens that God creates in Genesis 1. It is third and finally (and still to come) on earth, per Revelation, when God at last dwells with us.

3) From a connotation perspective, "the deep" is more fitting. "Heaven" has a positive connotation that we need to be careful of - (God never called this primordial state good!) "The deep" has a certain neutrality to it - neither good nor evil, maybe both.

4) Your earlier proposal of homelessness, and whether God was homeless in this primordial state: I think that's a really good way to look at it. God is basically in an abyss before Genesis 1, it's dark and there are waters lashing about (presumably like the sea before we see Jesus calm it). It's a pretty stark picture, and sets up the heavens as the home that God makes for Godself in creation (just as God made the earth to be our home). I think that is a powerful idea...

5) The "waters." I would suggest this other primordial element is symbolic of what fills the deep before the moment of creation. Just fluid matter I think, or whatever you want to call it. (I'm liable to suggest that other things may be lurking in the waters and in the deep, but that's just speculation.)
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:14 pmSo ...remind me of the case (scriptural support ) for calling God's original uncreated home "water" rather than "heaven"?
In Genesis 1:1, when God created the heavens and the earth, the deep / waters were already there. We see them in Genesis 1:2 - darkness covers them and God hovers over them. These elements are never created by God.

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Post #34

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:25 am
theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:19 am
Linking with John 1:1, which is arguably the more pivotal verse, it actually cements my point that spirit / word have a strong affinity...
What do you mean? Do you mean God has no intelligence power or self determination?
Yup. Insofar as God is spirit at least.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:25 am In what way is man (intelligent beings with a measure of power) made in Gods image?
I don't think it's intelligence or power that we're made in the image of. It's something way more primordial than that. But this is a debate on its own, so bear with me. :)

1) Genesis 1 strongly suggests that it's something about our gendered nature that makes us in the image of God. i.e., "So God created humankind in God's own image, male and female God created them." In other words, there is something "male and female" about God that God wants to recreate in us.

2) This is reinforced when we consider that God in Genesis 1 is the plural Elohim (versus Yahweh), which we see expressed in translations when God refers to Godself as an "us" or an "our". i.e., "Let us make humankind in our image..."

3) There is a highly participatory / collaborative "jussive mood" to God's speech in Genesis 1 (i.e., "Let us..."), suggesting that the plurality of "Elohim" is something more like a voluntary partnership, versus, say, an authoritarian regime, or a unilateral power and control over others...

Bringing all this together, and coming full circle, to be made in the image of God (/Elohim) is to be made male and female. It is to be joined together as husband and wife. (The imprint of Elohim on fluid matter is ultimately something akin to marriage.)

So that, I think, is the answer to the question. But if we take it further, and go back to our discussion on the primordial elements, the question becomes, who (or what) is God's partner in creation? What is the "male and female" aspect of Elohim that God wants to recreate in us?

The only things that could constitute this 'divine' union are the Spirit of God, the deep, and some fluid matter, which I actually think fits the argument pretty well. i.e., In Genesis 1, the Spirit / Word (the male element - like a seed) combines with the deep (the female element - like a womb), and together they order and form the fluid matter filling the deep into the heavens and the earth (a home) and ultimately into life itself.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:25 amIn what way did Jesus the man (with the above qualities) an exact representation of God ?[/list]
I think there are three aspects to that, again, all going back to the primordial elements...

1) It means Jesus speaks the Word himself. i.e., if God is to the heavens as Jesus is to earth (if we recognize the earth as a microcosm of the broader cosmic order), then on earth Jesus takes on the male end of the partnership, and everything around him (all the people, animals and plants filling the space of the earth), are essentially the deep with its waters. His mission is to calm (/subdue!) it all, just like God did on the cosmic scale in Genesis 1, and return it all back to God in the end (see 1 Corinthians 15).

2) It means Jesus hears the Word and answers the call. If we go back to Genesis 1 (note John's point that "he" was there from the beginning, and "through him" all things were done), we should imagine "Jesus" as one in the primordial deep who responds to God's call, and helps bring forth what God calls for. He is essentially the female end of the partnership in this aspect - God's helper, as Eve is to be Adam's helper (hence the female imagery often used of him).

3) It means Jesus is the product of this partnership, i.e., of Spirit (/Word) and fluid matter (/flesh) coming together in perfect union. He is the child that God calls for, literally the Word made flesh. (He is the light, to use a Genesis 1 example, as John 1 also does).

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18134
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 437 times
Been thanked: 671 times
Contact:

Re:

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:07 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:25 am
theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:19 am
Linking with John 1:1, which is arguably the more pivotal verse, it actually cements my point that spirit / word have a strong affinity...
What do you mean? Do you mean God has no intelligence power or self determination?
Yup. Insofar as God is spirit at least.


What do you mean by "Insofar as God is spirit" I am speaking about the YHWH identified in scripture that is spoken of as speaking, acting, expressing intelligent thoughts and emotions, creating, deliberately selecting to destroy, ...etc. So this is the individual I am speaking about... So to be precise ? Do you mean God [As in the individual identified as YHWH [The Father/Elohim] has no intelligence power or self determination?

(Or would be difficult to come to any conclusions as to location if we do not precisely identify who or what de are talking about).
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: Re:

Post #36

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:31 am
theophile wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:07 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:25 am
theophile wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:19 am
Linking with John 1:1, which is arguably the more pivotal verse, it actually cements my point that spirit / word have a strong affinity...
What do you mean? Do you mean God has no intelligence power or self determination?
Yup. Insofar as God is spirit at least.
What do you mean by "Insofar as God is spirit" I am speaking about the YHWH identified in scripture that is spoken of as speaking, acting, expressing intelligent thoughts and emotions, creating, deliberately selecting to destroy, ...etc. So this is the individual I am speaking about... So to be precise ? Do you mean God [As in the individual identified as YHWH [The Father/Elohim] has no intelligence power or self determination?

(Or would be difficult to come to any conclusions as to location if we do not precisely identify who or what de are talking about).
Another debate in itself. :)

To set that up, I think that Yahweh and Elohim need to be differentiated. Elohim (I would argue) is pure spirit. More aloof, impersonal, etc. Yahweh is better thought of (I think) as a more cosmic version of Christ, or as symbolic of a real (physical) being who has some of the 3 aspects I laid out in my last post. i.e., Yahweh is one who hears and speaks the Word (and has actual power to back it up). As such, Yahweh is far more engaged in earthly affairs (to your point) than Elohim is...

I get that's a lot to swallow, but when I think of Yahweh I actually do think of some great entity out there (not pure spirit), who can command the elements and unleash powerful forces upon us. No different, say, than if a more advanced humankind were to happen upon a primitive race in its sojourns through space. We could be like Yahweh to such a people. We could speak the Word to them and unleash terrible judgments upon them...

Hence why I say "insofar as God is spirit." I say this because (1) to an earlier point, I tend to black box the original source / speaker of the Spirit / Word, and (2) I think the whole point is for the Word / Spirit to become flesh. Yahweh / Christ are the ultimate examples of this (cosmic and earthly versions, let's say).

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18134
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 437 times
Been thanked: 671 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:56 am Yahweh / Christ are the ultimate examples of this (cosmic and earthly versions, let's say).
So sticking with Yahweh as depicted in scripture, does he have intelligence, autonomy, power and self determination? Can he communicate his thoughts and desires? Can Yahweh act in a discriminating manner? Can he create? Did he create? And if he did is he responsible for the existence of the physical universe ?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: Re:

Post #38

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:04 am
theophile wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:56 am Yahweh / Christ are the ultimate examples of this (cosmic and earthly versions, let's say).
So sticking with Yahweh as depicted in scripture, does he have intelligence, autonomy, power and self determination? Can he communicate his thoughts and desires? Can Yahweh act in a discriminating manner? Can he create? Did he create? And if he did is he responsible for the existence of the physical universe?
Yahweh as opposed to Elohim?

This comes down to the question of existence for me, and what we can say for certain there. I didn't emphasize this before, but there is no way to know that one like Yahweh (or Christ) ever existed, or is to come. I would argue that Elohim exists, because Elohim is more representative of the spirit aspect of God, and as such can never die (and may not even technically be alive...). But not Yahweh. Or Christ for that matter. Or any in whom the Spirit is made flesh or enters into actual being and can cease to be. Ironically, they are the most real / physical manifestation of God (being the Spirit made flesh), but they are also the most symbolic and uncertain. They are the least knowable since they require that extra step, from spirit to matter - which literally takes a miracle (like the conception of Jesus or resurrection).

So for that reason, I can't answer yes. (i.e., If Yahweh doesn't exist, Yahweh can't be intelligent, autonomous, etc., at least not in the time of non-existence. And if Yahweh never existed, Yahweh couldn't have done the things you ask...)

But if Yahweh did exist, or does exist, or is to come, then yes, such a being would in all likelihood have these qualities, and could have done these things.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18134
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 437 times
Been thanked: 671 times
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post #39

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:15 am
I didn't emphasize this before, but there is no way to know that one like Yahweh (or Christ) ever existed, or is to come.
Whether he exists or not I am asking about how he is depicted in scripture.
theophile wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:15 am... then yes, such a being would in all likelihood have these qualities, and could have done these things.
Okay, whenever I say the word GOD, Yahweh, as an intelligent, powerful Creator of the universe is who I am referring to.
So God (see above) is a spirit and he originally existed in an uncreated realm seperate and distinct from the created universe referred to in Genesis 1:1.

What scriptural evidence can you present to support calling this YHWH's " uncreated realm" water rather than heaven?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 7454
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 643 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #40

Post by onewithhim »

theophile wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:07 pm
It does "proves there are two worlds" ... for the people this subforum was created for: people who trust biblical teachings.

Thanks for your opinion.
A bit abrupt. But what makes you think I don't trust biblical teachings? I do. I'm just arguing with you about what they are. (The point of this channel, right?)

I am referencing Genesis 1 to make my point, which is the one place we would expect to settle the argument on what worlds exist and what order they are created. What you are suggesting is nowhere said.
Yes it is said. Eloi showed you how we arrive at that conclusion.

.

Post Reply