A QUESTION FOR ANYONE WHO HOLDS TO FREE WILL UNTO SALVATION

[Eddie Ramos]

How is it possible for someone to think they are truly saved (based on their free will), but truly not be saved at all?

Proverbs 30:12 (KJV 1900)
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet is not washed from their filthiness.

Matthew 7:22–23 (KJV 1900)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Acts 8:13 (KJV 1900)
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 8:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Thou (Simon) hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus told us all we need to know about salvation.

"...the one who has endured to the end will be saved" - JESUS CHRIST (Mat 24:13)

[Eddie Ramos]

Jesus told us all we need to know about salvation.

"...the one who has endured to the end will be saved" - JESUS CHRIST (Mat 24:13)

Jesus commanded the gospel to be preached in all the world. But understanding was always in the hands of God.

2 Timothy 2:24–26 (KJV 1900)
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure (this means, perhaps) will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Would you be willing to answer the question of free will? Why, if salvation was based on the free will choice of any person, does the Bible give us many examples of people believing in Jesus and yet remaining in their same unsaved condition and never having been saved at all? I believe these are important questions for anyone who wants to examine the doctrine they hold of free will unto salvation.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

I’m confused about why you added “free will” into your question.

God has given us free will to accept or reject Him.

Imho, many believe they are saved, but they are not. They acknowledge God, but they choose to not do His will. (Matthew 7:21)

[onewithhim]

Jesus told us all we need to know about salvation.

"...the one who has endured to the end will be saved" - JESUS CHRIST (Mat 24:13)

Jesus commanded the gospel to be preached in all the world. But understanding was always in the hands of God.

2 Timothy 2:24–26 (KJV 1900)
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure (this means, perhaps) will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Would you be willing to answer the question of free will? Why, if salvation was based on the free will choice of any person, does the Bible give us many examples of people believing in Jesus and yet remaining in their same unsaved condition and never having been saved at all? I believe these are important questions for anyone who wants to examine the doctrine they hold of free will unto salvation.

It all depends on the heart of the individual. Jesus said that many would think they were saved but were actually on the road to destruction. What are their motives? Which God are they praying to? Jesus said to pray to the Father, "the only true God" (Matthew 6:9; John 17:3). Most of Christendom do not pray to the Father, Jehovah. And they think because of their many words that they are being heard by God (Matthew 6:7), but they fool themselves.
We all have the power to choose which way we want to go. Those who recognize the true God and truly follow His Son and endure to the end will be saved.

"That men may know that thou, whose name is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18, KJV) It is very clear who the true God is, but many who claim to be Christians do not recognize Him. They could examine their Bibles better. They choose to ignore Jehovah. It's all what they want to believe. There is a lucrative position as a "Christian" pastor or priest, for high positions and a great deal of money for many.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

I’m confused about why you added “free will” into your question.

God has given us free will to accept or reject Him.

Imho, many believe they are saved, but they are not. They acknowledge God, but they choose to not do His will. (Matthew 7:21)

Thank you for your reply. I added the words "free will" because that is the most widely held doctrine among Christians. That a person, of their own free will, can accept Christ in order to become saved. Your reply acknowledged that you hold to this doctrine as well , but that doctrine is altogether incorrect. That is the reason for this thread.
To discuss the contradictions faced when one holds to a doctrine that is not taught by the whole of the scriptures.

Your last comment confused me somewhat. The Bible only speaks of 2 types of people, saved or unsaved. One cannot be both. But I would be willing to examine any scriptures that lead you to that conclusion. Matthew 7:21 is not speaking of people who became saved at all, but only of thise who THOUGHT they were saved, but never were. Verse 23 confirms that they were never saved at all because Christ never knew them.

Matthew 7:21 (KJV) 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Incidentally, this passage also abolishes the unbiblical doctrine of the age of accountability which states that until a child reaches a certain age, they are saved and will go to heaven. But to be saved is to be known of God.

The fact that Jesus tells people that he NEVER knew them , teaches us that salvation applies the same way to everyone who has ever lived. By God's choice and never by man's own will.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

I’m confused about why you added “free will” into your question.

God has given us free will to accept or reject Him.

Imho, many believe they are saved, but they are not. They acknowledge God, but they choose to not do His will. (Matthew 7:21)

Thank you for your reply. I added the words "free will" because that is the most widely held doctrine among Christians. That a person, of their own free will, can accept Christ in order to become saved. Your reply acknowledged that you hold to this doctrine as well , but that doctrine is altogether incorrect. That is the reason for this thread.
To discuss the contradictions faced when one holds to a doctrine that is not taught by the whole of the scriptures.

Your last comment confused me somewhat. The Bible only speaks of 2 types of people, saved or unsaved. One cannot be both. But I would be willing to examine any scriptures that lead you to that conclusion. Matthew 7:21 is not speaking of people who became saved at all, but only of thise who THOUGHT they were saved, but never were. Verse 23 confirms that they were never saved at all because Christ never knew them.

Matthew 7:21 (KJV) 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Incidentally, this passage also abolishes the unbiblical doctrine of the age of accountability which states that until a child reaches a certain age, they are saved and will go to heaven. But to be saved is to be known of God.

The fact that Jesus tells people that he NEVER knew them , teaches us that salvation applies the same way to everyone who has ever lived. By God's choice and never by man's own will.

I'm sorry but your explanations don't make sense. Of course God allows people to choose for themselves or He would be lying. Throughout the Scriptures He basically pleads with humans to choose to follow Him. "You must choose life in order that you may keep alive." (Deut.30:19b)

And He certainly wouldn't be waiting for people to accept Him and His Son if He already had decided that they would live or die. "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise...but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2Peter 3:9) What is He waiting for?

[Eddie Ramos]

I'm sorry but your explanations don't make sense. Of course God allows people to choose for themselves or He would be lying. Throughout the Scriptures He basically pleads with humans to choose to follow Him. "You must choose life in order that you may keep alive." (Deut.30:19b)

The only way my explanations wouldn't make sense is if you have never looked at all that the Bible has to say regarding salvation. Most people approach the Bible as if though God wrote His Word in such a way as to make it plain and simple to the reader, but that couldn't be further from the truth which the Bible teaches. Can you show me the passages where God pleads with mankind to choose to follow him? You did quote Deut 30:19, as evidence for your claim of a plea. But let's look at the context just a few verses earlier.


Deuteronomy 30:15–16 (KJV 1900)
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

This is not a plea by any means, it was a commandment. The other mistake you are making is looking at a passage like this one, which speaks of earthly blessings for doing good, and think it applies to salvation. This passage teaches no such thing.

Deuteronomy 30:17–20 (KJV 1900)
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And He certainly wouldn't be waiting for people to accept Him and His Son if He already had decided that they would live or die. "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise...but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2Peter 3:9) What is He waiting for?

Can you show me where you read that God is waiting for people to "accept" him or his son? I know this is a very popular word used in the Christian circles, but I've never come across any passage that tells us that we must accept Christ in order to become saved. But I have come across a passage that tells us that Christ died to make us acceptable to God, which is quite the opposite.

Ephesians 1:6 (KJV 1900)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God's salvation plan commenced before the world began, where he predestined all those whom he planned to save and paid for their sins before he even created the world. Then, God began to apply his work of atonement to his chosen people shortly after the fall of man. Abel, as far as we can tell, was the first person whom the Bible tells us was truly a child of God. This means he was saved. God's salvation plan spanned thousands of years because God had everything laid out to take place over the course of time.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 (KJV 1900)

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

This is where God's longsuffering (patience) comes into the picture. But what was God being paitient for? For for all humans to come to repentance? Well since you quoted 2 Peter 3:9, let's see what the context says.

Who is God addressing? The whole world or the beloved of God?

2 Peter 3:1 (KJV 1900)
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Notice how God makes a distinction between the beloved whom He's addressing in verse 1 and another group of people, the ungodly, that is, those who are not saved.

2 Peter 3:3 (KJV 1900)
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV 1900)
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Now God is once again placing his focus on the first group of people he was addressing, the beloved.

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV 1900)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And this sets the stage for a proper understanding of who God is referring to in verse 9, the beloved.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV 1900)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to US-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is longsuffering to US-ward, meaning to the beloved, not to the ungodly. God is not willing that any (of his beloved) should perish. In other words, it is God's will that none of his beloved perish, and they will never perish. And so the "all" who will come to repentance are also still speaking of the beloved and not the ungodly.

So, to apply verse 9 to the whole of mankind is to ignore not only what the immediate context teaches but also the context of the whole Bible, because if you think that God is waiting for anyone and everyone to come to repentance, of their own voluntary will, and become saved, then you are holding onto a doctrine of salvation by works which is not true. The Bible teaches us that repentance is a work and no man is justified by the works of the law. Furthermore, did you know that it was God who granted repentance in the first place? And he did so to his chosen people once he saved them first.

2 Timothy 2:24–25 (KJV 1900)
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure (means maybe) will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Psalm 80:19 (KJV 1900)
Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts,
Cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #8]

None of your references prove that God is not waiting for people to repent. The Scriptures are clear that that is what he is waiting for. Otherwise he wouldn't be waiting for anything. (2Peter 3:9; Deuteronomy 30: 15-20) People must choose to listen to him or they won't have life.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #8]

None of your references prove that God is not waiting for people to repent. The Scriptures are clear that that is what he is waiting for. Otherwise he wouldn't be waiting for anything. (2Peter 3:9; Deuteronomy 30: 15-20) People must choose to listen to him or they won't have life.

As I showed above, the "people" are specific people, they are the beloved whom God was being patient with. The longsuffering (patience) of God was directed solely to his chosen people, the elect. God had a specific time and season of when he whould grant repentance to each of his elect. That time period lasted from the day man fell in the garden until the end of the great tribulation period. Then God shut the door to salvation. So, while the door was open, God worked out his salvation plan in the lives of each of his elect. Free will unto salvation is an impossability according to the scriptures because salvation is a spiritual event not a physical event. That is why truly believing was never based on the will of man but only on our dead soul first being brought to eternal life in order that we could truly believe.

John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born (meaning born again), not of blood (not because of any bloodline), nor of the WILL of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Not born again by man's own will nor his desire.