What does John 1:1c say?

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tigger2
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What does John 1:1c say?

Post #1

Post by tigger2 »

The Tanager and tigger 2 will discuss.

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The Tanager
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Post #21

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to post 20 by tigger2]

I am not arguing 'what ifs'. You've given a definition to shape our examination of the written record that is available to all and seemed to offer a poor reason to use that definition. Instead of supporting why it is a good definition or clarifying why that is not your definition, you just go on with your case. It'd be reasonable to end our conversation there.

But, if I ever do come across a good reason to limit the parallels the way you do, why is John 1:18a not a good parallel? Theon oudeis heoraken popote. Theon seems like an anarthrous, unmodified, singular count predicate noun written before the verb.

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Post #22

Post by tigger2 »

[Replying to post 21 by The Tanager]

Theon is a different noun case, but I have studied article use with them also, and can explain John 1:18, but I'm sure that you would not accept anything I have discovered.

So, you're right. Let's stop.

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Post #23

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to post 22 by tigger2]

If that is what you want. If I was misunderstanding your points and it seemed like I was being flippant or hostile in my responses because of that, then I'm sorry we could not clear that up. I do want to thank you for sharing the thoughts you have. I hope to hear your thoughts on future topics and wish you the best. I believe you are supposed to post in the head-to-head thing we posted in to start that the conversation is done.

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Post #24

Post by tigger2 »

[Replying to post 22 by tigger2]

I'll leave with a post of a small part of my study: John's uses of theos:

Here are all John's uses of the nominative theos:

There are 51 such uses of theos by John (18 in the Gospel of John, 13 in First John, 20 in Revelation). Here is the list of every theos (nominative case) used by John. If it has the definite article, “art.� has been written after the verse number. If it does not have the definite article, “an.� (for “anarthrous�) has been written before the verse number. If it appears to be applied to Jesus, “Jesus� has been written after the verse number.

an. John 1:1c - - Jesus
an. Jn 1:18 - - - Jesus (W and H text; Nestle text; UBS text - [Received Text and Byzantine text have art. "Son"])*
Jn 3:2 art.
Jn 3:16 art.
Jn 3:17 art.
Jn 3:33 art.
Jn 3:34 art.
Jn 4:24 art.
Jn 6:27 art.
Jn 8:42 art.
an. Jn 8:54 - - -“God of you�
Jn 9:29 art.
Jn 9:31 art.
Jn 11:22 art.
Jn 13:31 art.
Jn 13:32 art. (2 occurrences)
Jn 20:28 art. Jesus (?) “God of me� - (see ‘My God’ study)

1 John 1:5 art.
1 Jn 3:20 art.
1 Jn 4:8 art.
1 Jn 4:9 art.
1 Jn 4:11 art.
1 Jn 4:12 art.
1 Jn 4:15 art.
1 Jn 4:16 art. (3 occurrences)
1 Jn 5:10 art.
1 Jn 5:11 art.
1 Jn 5:20 art.

Revelation
Rev. 1:1 art.
Rev. 1:8 art.
Rev. 4:8 art.
Rev. 4:11 art. “the God of us�
Rev. 7:17 art.
Rev. 11:17 art.
Rev. 15:3 art.
Rev. 16:7 art.
Rev. 17:17 art.
Rev. 18:5 art.
Rev. 18:8 art.
Rev. 18:20 art.
Rev. 19:6 art. “the God of us�
Rev. 21:3 art.
an. Rev. 21:7 ---- “God to him� (modified by a dative - "prepositional")
Rev. 21:22 art.
Rev. 22:5 art.
Rev. 22:6 art. “the God of the spirits�
Rev. 22:18 art.
Rev. 22:19 art.

We can see that out of at least 48 uses by John of theos for the only true God (all those apparently not applied to Jesus), 46 of them have the definite article. And the only two exceptions are, again, "prepositional" (modified by a dative and a genitive).

In fact, there is a total of 117 places in ALL of the writings of the 4 Gospel writers where the nominative theos in non-“prepositional� form is applied to the only true God. EVERY ONE OF THEM HAS THE DEFINITE ARTICLE! The only 2 places in all of these inspired scriptures where theos in non-“prepositional� phrases is clearly not applied to the only true God (John 1:1c and John 1:18*[see note below] which apply to the Son of God) also just “happen� to be the only 2 places that do not have the definite article! So, in all 119 of the non-“prepositional� uses of theos by the Gospel writers the presence of the definite article always determines the only true God!
…………
* Note: John 1:18 is a disputed scripture. Trinitarian scholars and translators themselves are divided as to whether the original writing here was an anarthrous or articular “only-begotten son (huios)� or an anarthrous or articular “only-begotten theos.�

Thank you for agreeing to this head-to-head. Maybe we can try again sometime.

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Post #25

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to post 24 by tigger2]

Whenever you want. I love head-to-head discussions.

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