How can Christianity be the new covenant?

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postroad
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How can Christianity be the new covenant?

Post #1

Post by postroad »

The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 New International Version (NIV)

38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

Compared to.


Micah 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

Israel’s Misery
7 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day God visits you has come,
the day your watchmen sound the alarm.
Now is the time of your confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor;
put no confidence in a friend.
Even with the woman who lies in your embrace
guard the words of your lips.
6 For a son dishonors his father,
a daughter rises up against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.


Jesus claims both.

New International Version (NIV)

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.�

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.


Matthew 10:34-36 New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Luke 12:49-51 New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Jesus weeps that he can't bring peace to Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41-43 New International Version (NIV)

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.

But it was deliberately hidden.

Matthew 13:10-13 New International Version (NIV)

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?�

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.


Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Romans 11:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.�l


How can this be when God promised to reverse the condition in the new covenant?

Jeremiah 24:6-7 New International Version (NIV)

6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

postroad
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Post #11

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 9 by Wootah]

Yes. It was the promise that Cyrus allowed to return that are named the recipients of the new covenant.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

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Post #12

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 11 by postroad]

OK new tack. What is the everlasting covenant that God speaks of in Jer 32:40?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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postroad
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Post #13

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 12 by Wootah]

the immediate context shows what it meant.

But in case you don't believe it here is Jeremiah's contemporary explaining it again.



Ezekiel 37:20-28 New International Version (NIV)

20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,[a] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’�

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Post #14

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 13 by postroad]

So is it your view that God made a new covenant with Israel in the passages you are quoting?

That God divorced and then burned Israel down to a remnant and then remarried them?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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postroad
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Post #15

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]
The texts indicate that God removed his favour from the northern and southern tribes.
The northern tribes were sent into captivity followed shortly after by the southern tribes.

God promises a return for Israel and Judaea with the stipulation that God himself would bring about the return, the rebuilding of the Temple the restoration of the Davidic dynasty and the sanctification of national Isr. All of this was to be unilaterally guaranteed for eternity.

The reality never matched the prophecies and they were reinterpreted after the Dravidic kingdom failed to materialize.

All of it was rendered future tense with a mysterious Messiah figure filling the place of the King.

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Post #16

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 15 by postroad]

So are you saying the prophecies have failed or do you still expect them?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #17

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 16 by Wootah]

It's all a failed prophecy. In my opinion it's all propaganda created to legitimize the returning upper classes from Babylon who where in actuality completely controlled and financed by their Babylonian masters. Pretty much they remained vassals in one form or another until destroyed by the Romans. Ironically it was that very messianic fiction created by the Temple cult which caused the unceasing unrest and revolt that brought about their own downfall.

Of course the blame will be placed on the people for failure to meet the standards that ensure God's protection. But that simply is absurd if God himself is portrayed as the insurer of that obedience.

Paul references a text from Hosea and attributes it to the Gentiles.
Nothing could be further from the truth.

New International Version (NIV)

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,�[a]
26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’�


Hosea 2:2-23 New International Version (NIV)

Israel Punished and Restored
2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.
Let her remove the adulterous look from her face
and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts.
3 Otherwise I will strip her naked
and make her as bare as on the day she was born;
I will make her like a desert,
turn her into a parched land,
and slay her with thirst.
4 I will not show my love to her children,
because they are the children of adultery.
5 Their mother has been unfaithful
and has conceived them in disgrace.
She said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
who give me my food and my water,
my wool and my linen, my olive oil and my drink.’
6 Therefore I will block her path with thornbushes;
I will wall her in so that she cannot find her way.
7 She will chase after her lovers but not catch them;
she will look for them but not find them.
Then she will say,
‘I will go back to my husband as at first,
for then I was better off than now.’
8 She has not acknowledged that I was the one
who gave her the grain, the new wine and oil,
who lavished on her the silver and gold—
which they used for Baal.
9 “Therefore I will take away my grain when it ripens,
and my new wine when it is ready.
I will take back my wool and my linen,
intended to cover her naked body.
10 So now I will expose her lewdness
before the eyes of her lovers;
no one will take her out of my hands.
11 I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.
12 I will ruin her vines and her fig trees,
which she said were her pay from her lovers;
I will make them a thicket,
and wild animals will devour them.
13 I will punish her for the days
she burned incense to the Baals;
she decked herself with rings and jewelry,
and went after her lovers,
but me she forgot,�
declares the Lord.
14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her.
15 There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor[a] a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.
16 “In that day,� declares the Lord,
“you will call me ‘my husband’;
you will no longer call me ‘my master.[c]’
17 I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips;
no longer will their names be invoked.
18 In that day I will make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the creatures that move along the ground.
Bow and sword and battle
I will abolish from the land,
so that all may lie down in safety.
19 I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you in[d] righteousness and justice,
in[e] love and compassion.
20 I will betroth you in[f] faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord.
21 “In that day I will respond,�
declares the Lord—
“I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earth;
22 and the earth will respond to the grain,
the new wine and the olive oil,
and they will respond to Jezreel.[g]
23 I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.[h]’
I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’;
and they will say, ‘You are my God.’�
Last edited by postroad on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #18

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 17 by postroad]

Dumb question. Are you an atheist or believer and if a believer can i get a general idea of your faith please?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #19

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 18 by Wootah]
I'm not a believer although I wouldn't be considered a strong atheist. Agnostic atheist would be the best description.

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Post #20

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 17 by postroad]

How is God the insurer of obedience (without Jesus)?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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