Why do some people believe mormons are not christian?

[Kuan]

So, you can probably tell I'm Mormon and I'm willing to debate my religion or answer questions. The purpose of this thread though is that I have had many people tell me I'm not Christian even though I believe in Jesus. I'm wondering why that is. Thanks for any answers!

[Darias]

If you don't believe the bible is right, then you are not a christian.

I do not believe in Biblical Inerracy

I cannot because there are things within the text that are factually wrong.

The Bible is not the direct spoken word of God. The Bible is a collection of books written by a myriad of human beings over thousands of years. Its final form came together in 325 AD. Paul's teachings were not the "Word of God" when He was teaching. Whenever He referred to "God's Word," He spoke of the Torah.

The authors of the Bible may have been inspired by God, but they were still human. This is why if you read Paul's teachings, you will conclude that salvation comes via faith alone, but if you read James -- salvation is not real unless one does works. Modern apologists fuse the two teachings together -- and I agree that both are necessary for Christianity.

The bible is not a story book full of myths and legends.

No, but the Bible contains many myths and stories which are seen in other, older cultures. The Flood and the Garden for example.

Christ himself used stories. The parable of the sower wasn't about a real person, and it wasn't about agriculture. It was a metaphor for a moral lesson.

Next you will be telling me that people didn't actually live to be older than 100 years old.

Most people who lived in times when no medicine or sanitation was available were lucky to live to be 20. Old age as we know it is only possible because of modern medicine, modern sanitation (like sewers etc), etc.

Sure there were some people who lived to be old, but it is physically impossible for human beings to live to be several hundred years old. I cannot subscribe to such a fantasy. The only explanation I have for the reason why such old ages are in the Bible must be a translation error. The modern year is based off of a 365 day period -- it might not have been the same in the past; I don't know. Nothing short of a miracle or some future technology could extend the lives of human beings that long.

The bible is called the word of god for a reason. If you do not believe in the bible, then you are not a christian.

I own a few copies of the Bible in different editions. I have been reading it most of my life. I believe in the moral lessons that it teaches and I especially like the Psalms. I do not believe in Biblical Inerracy, but I do believe it does contain examples of God's goodness and the moral imperative to love and do good to others -- in that sense, it is God's Word.

. . . This is the second time you've accused me of not being a Christian and I don't appreciate it. Only God can judge who is and who is not -- you don't get to do that.

The bible gives us our laws and morals.

The Bible is full of laws, some of which Christianity has adopted as their own. Morals, however, are not a Christian creation. Many people, of all faiths and none, can be very moral and good people -- even those who never heard of the Bible.

You say that there are things in the bible that are factually wrong. Give me evidence.

Okay, but you have to promise to read it. You'd be surprised how many people don't read the links I provide, whether I'm talking about politics, religion, or history. LOL.

Okay. Biblical literalism -- reading the words of the Bible literally and believing they are without error would mean the acceptance of a flat earth.

Verses describing a flat earth, a fixed heaven (or outer-space), the sun moving around the earth, etc.

Now the Greeks believed in a spherical earth, but they also believed the sun rotated around the earth.

I for one can contradict you on one thing. You say the bible says the earth does not revolve around the sun. On the contrary the bible actually tells us that the sun has its own orbit. Somthing that until recently was unknown to science.

Of course our sun orbits around the galaxy -- our whole solar system does that. But the sun does not move around the earth, which is something the Catholic Church centuries ago, believed. Poor Galileo...

But look, until science discovered the truth, Christians' interpretations of the text applied to the knowledge of their times. Joshua believed that the sun moved around the earth, which is why he begged God for the sun to stand still. Early Christians believed this verse confirmed the 'truth' of geocentrism. It wasn't until scientists confirmed the facts that this belief went out the window -- but it didn't die quietly -- many objected the man-made science violated God's spoken truth.

There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.
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SOURCE

Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?
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SOURCE

Sounds awfully familiar...

Which brings me to evolution -- a fact of biology backed up by DNA, fossil records, and even observation of microbes -- plus over 150 years of evidence, peer-review, debate, etc.

The Bible makes no mention of it. In fact it gets this one 100% wrong. Of course, people will still believe that our earth is only a few thousand years old -- that it just happened to poof into existence right before great civilizations developed writing. That all our genetics and ancestry and fossils are just tricks by Satan or one big test by God...

Hogwash. Facts are facts.. and the Bible is simply factually incorrect on this issue. This is not surprising as Moses wasn't a 21st century biologist. He lived in the desert and knew only what he saw with his own eyes, and was taught during childhood.

The bible isn't a guide book. It is is a law book. It is a history book. It is completely acurate.

Actually, the Bible is a guide for many.

It is not a law book, but it contains many laws.

It is not a history book, but it contains examples of accurate history.

It is not a science book, but it gets some things right.


Above all, the Bible is anything BUT "completely accurate."

[prkrruns]

This is why if you read Paul's teachings, you will conclude that salvation comes via faith alone, but if you read James -- salvation is not real unless one does works.

Such messages are important. For instance would you not agree that faith is necessary, but to have a true relationship with God you must do his works.

It was a metaphor for a moral lesson.

That is a very slippery slope. Perhapse Jesus was a man and the name Son of God was merely a metaphore of God's blessing upon him. I imagine you also do not believe in miracles. God is impossible. You are looking at God through the word instead of looking at the word through God. Don't try to apply rules to God. If the bible says 5'000 men(not counting the many thousands of women and children present) were fed by a few loaves of bread and some fish then it did indeed happen.

Nothing short of a miracle or some future technology could extend the lives of human beings that long.

Are you saying God could not have performed such a miracle?

I believe in the moral lessons that it teaches

So do most Athiests. How does that make you a Christian?

This is the second time you've accused me of not being a Christian and I don't appreciate it. Only God can judge who is and who is not -- you don't get to do that.

Actually I can say what I like. True I do not get to tell you what you do or do not believe. However what you believe is not in question. It is the fact that what you believe is not correct.

However I will concede to the point that you do not have to believe the bible is true in order to be a christian. I misspoke. Believe that Jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead, and is the only way into heaven is what makes somone a christian. Aso beieving that God is the one and only God. If you have faith enough to doubt the bible yet still believe these things, then i envy you. If I did not have my faith in the bible i would probably doubt my religion constantly.

The Bible is full of laws, some of which Christianity has adopted as their own. Morals, however, are not a Christian creation. Many people, of all faiths and none, can be very moral and good people -- even those who never heard of the Bible.

Morals are not a Christian creation, they are Gods creation. That is WHY somone who has never heard of the bible still has basic morals.

You'd be surprised how many people don't read the links I provide, whether I'm talking about politics, religion, or history. LOL.

I promise to read it. I am thankful to you for providing proof.[/code]

[prkrruns]

My bible has a different interpretation which says: "The world is firmly established."

Now this sounds more it is saying that the Lord established the world and he is going to protect it.

In my translation of the bible it uses the word "established" instead of "fixed the earth immovable", which is why it is important to know which translation you are reading.

Also all of the examples are taken out of context. It seems they are praising God's works, saying somthing like " God created the Earth and will not let it be destroyed" rather than, "The continents are not moving!"

[Kuan]

However I will concede to the point that you do not have to believe the bible is true in order to be a christian. I misspoke. Believe that Jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead, and is the only way into heaven is what makes somone a christian. Aso beieving that God is the one and only God. If you have faith enough to doubt the bible yet still believe these things, then i envy you. If I did not have my faith in the bible i would probably doubt my religion constantly.

Somewhat confused and wanting to clear this up.

To me: Mormons fit into what you just said constitutes a christian.

Is that a bad inference from what you just said?

[fewwillfindit]

Verses describing a flat earth, a fixed heaven (or outer-space), the sun moving around the earth, etc.

This article you posted a link to is such a biased crock of shinola I'm surprised that you even posted it. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't read it through. If you did read it through and agree with its conclusions, then that speaks volumes.

I don't have time to dismantle it line by line right now, but even a cursory reading by anyone with even a modicum of impartiality reveals how ludicrous its conclusions are.

How disappointing. I may tackle it in the near future, but I'm tempted to not even waste my time.

[prkrruns]

To me: Mormons fit into what you just said constitutes a christian.

Is that a bad inference from what you just said?

Yes. You do not believe that God is the one and only God.

I am interested why you are so fixed upon being a christian. Christians have very clear beliefs and Mormons have very different ones. Why not just form your own religion.

I don't have time to dismantle it line by line right now, but even a cursory reading by anyone with even a modicum of impartiality reveals how ludicrous its conclusions are.

I share this opinion, and while I certainly am not going to take the time to completely disprove it I hope my simple counterpoint was enough.

[Kuan]

To me: Mormons fit into what you just said constitutes a christian.

Is that a bad inference from what you just said?

Yes. You do not believe that God is the one and only God.

No, we worship only one god. We believe that there could be many other gods though.

I am interested why you are so fixed upon being a christian. Christians have very clear beliefs and Mormons have very different ones. Why not just form your own religion.

Im not really fixed on it, im just continuing this for the sake of the discussion. I dont think either of us will change our minds though.

[Darias]

Verses describing a flat earth, a fixed heaven (or outer-space), the sun moving around the earth, etc.

This article you posted a link to is such a biased crock of shinola I'm surprised that you even posted it. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't read it through. If you did read it through and agree with its conclusions, then that speaks volumes.

I don't have time to dismantle it line by line right now, but even a cursory reading by anyone with even a modicum of impartiality reveals how ludicrous its conclusions are.

How disappointing. I may tackle it in the near future, but I'm tempted to not even waste my time.

I did not read the entire article, I was just using some of the verses in there to illustrate my point. Please debate me and my arguments, not the conclusions of whatever links I happen to use (I use a lot). Just because I may quote from Dawkins or someone else, it doesn't mean my conclusions line up with theirs.

[Darias]

[font=Impact]1.[/font]

This is why if you read Paul's teachings, you will conclude that salvation comes via faith alone, but if you read James -- salvation is not real unless one does works.

Such messages are important. For instance would you not agree that faith is necessary, but to have a true relationship with God you must do his works.

The idea that salvation comes via faith alone - not by works, as attributed to Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 is a conflicting message with the theology presented in the book of James, which is a work-based Christianity:

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Many older translations say that faith without works is "dead, barren, worthless."

As the author said in previous verse:

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

If you read what Jesus was reported to have said (according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) you will find that the theology of James is quite similar to the teachings of Jesus -- and that Paul's is less-so.


To be continued...

[fewwillfindit]

[font=Impact]1.[/font]

This is why if you read Paul's teachings, you will conclude that salvation comes via faith alone, but if you read James -- salvation is not real unless one does works.

Such messages are important. For instance would you not agree that faith is necessary, but to have a true relationship with God you must do his works.

The idea that salvation comes via faith alone - not by works, as attributed to Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 is a conflicting message with the theology presented in the book of James, which is a work-based Christianity:

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Many older translations say that faith without works is "dead, barren, worthless."

As the author said in previous verse:

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

If you read what Jesus was reported to have said (according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) you will find that the theology of James is quite similar to the teachings of Jesus -- and that Paul's is less-so.


To be continued...

These Scriptures are not saying that salvation is earned by works. They are saying that works are an evidence of salvation, not the mechanism by which salvation is gained.

Consider also:

But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

This view of soteriology harmonizes Paul and James. Yours places them in conflict with one another. Why would you choose the conflicting view, especially when James never explicitly teaches salvation by works?