Question about Trinity

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

[Peg]

Good <>Perfect that is your logical error.

Who do you say I am?

http://www.letusreason.org/trin16.htm

It's the point of the new testament.

Since you don't know what death is how can the rest of your claims on God not being able to become man be valid?

.
Im not sure what you think death is, but I take my view of death from the scriptures:

Ecclesisties 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished


Psalm 115:17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish

Death is the opposite of life. There is no consciousness in death. If you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, then you should reject any false notion that people dont die when they 'die'

Remember what the serpent told Eve when she explained the consequences of eating from the tree ...."you positively will not die!"

It seems many people are still fooled by the serpents lie. She positively DID die and so did Adam and so do we. Death is the opposite of life. But of course you are free to believe whatever you want to.

[McCulloch]

Since you don't know what death is how can the rest of your claims on God not being able to become man be valid?

Im not sure what you think death is, but I take my view of death from the scriptures:

Ecclesisties 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished

One should be very careful about taking proof-texts from Ecclesiastes. There are quite a few sound bites there, which taken out of context could prove contrary to much of the rest of the Bible.

Psalm 115:17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.
Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish

Death is the opposite of life. There is no consciousness in death. If you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, then you should reject any false notion that people dont die when they 'die'

Death is described as sleep, numerous times in the New Testament. Yet, both the Rich Man and Lazarus are portrayed as being conscious after death.

[Wootah]

Hi peg,

* what is your reply to the basic fact that good <> perfect?
Is Adam called perfect in the bible?

* how does a perfect human life commit sin?

* what was your reply to my car crash analogy? Does even a perfect mini ever pay for a merc? Do you think sin is against God?

[Peg]

Since you don't know what death is how can the rest of your claims on God not being able to become man be valid?

Im not sure what you think death is, but I take my view of death from the scriptures:

Ecclesisties 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished

One should be very careful about taking proof-texts from Ecclesiastes. There are quite a few sound bites there, which taken out of context could prove contrary to much of the rest of the Bible.

Psalm 115:17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.
Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish

Death is the opposite of life. There is no consciousness in death. If you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, then you should reject any false notion that people dont die when they 'die'

Death is described as sleep, numerous times in the New Testament. Yet, both the Rich Man and Lazarus are portrayed as being conscious after death.

Jesus and the apostles were Jewish...they believed and taught from the hebrew scriptures so the hebrew scritpures were the basis of their beliefs. Now if the hebrew scriptures taught that death is the opposite of life, then that is what Jesus and his apostles believed without doubt.

So in such cases as 'the rich man and lazarus' story, we have to determine if the story was literal, or if it was just another one of Jesus parables used to teach a lesson. The fact that hyperbole is used in the 'rich man and lazarus' story is evidence that it is only a figurative story and not literal.

[Peg]

Hi peg,

* what is your reply to the basic fact that good <> perfect?
Is Adam called perfect in the bible?

I should clarify 'perfection' because perfection is not 'absolute' for any of Gods creations...only God himself is absolutely perfect.
Psalm 25:8 tells us that God himself is Good. The hebrew word for 'good' is tohv
and it describes a state of moral excellence and of virtue. Goodness is a quality that has no badness or rottenness. So Adam was created in this state of moral excellence and he had no defect within his mind or heart.

Perfection is different to goodness... perfection basically is based on our actions. If we make a decision in harmony with Gods will, standards and morals...then we have made a 'perfect decision'
If we go against Gods standards or morals, then we have made an 'imperfect' decision.
Now if God has purposed for mankind to live a particular way of life, but mankind choose a different way of life, then they are out of harmony with their purpose and become 'imperfect'... This is what happened to Adam. He chose a path which was out of harmony with his purpose and therefore he became imperfect. But if he had of remained in harmony with God and made the right decision, he could have been perfect.

* how does a perfect human life commit sin?

Let me ask you a question

You may be thinking that a perfect man could not take a wrong course where a moral issue is involved... Lets say you are right about that for a second, a perfect man cannot choose to do wrong.
What about an imperfect man....could he not choose a RIGHT course where such moral issue was involved considering he is 'imperfect'?

We know that many imperfect people make right choices every day...some of the faithful men of the bible were imperfect, yet they were making good moral choices. Job was a man who was 'perfect' among his contemporaries because of his right moral course of life.

So this explains how a perfect man can become 'imperfect'... we are only perfect for as long as we remain doing the right thing. As soon as we depart from Gods righteous laws, we become imperfect. And that is what happened to Adam. For a time, he remained loyal and obedient to God participating in the work that God had assigned him... until the day that the chose a different course. He made an 'imperfect decision' on a moral matter. And thus he became imperfect himself.


So the individual’s will and choice are deciding factors in perfection. Human perfection alone does not guarantee right action...its how we exercise our free will and choice that decides perfection.

* what was your reply to my car crash analogy? Does even a perfect mini ever pay for a merc? Do you think sin is against God?

who is the mini and who is the merc?

Adam did not injure God...he injured himself and his own offspring. God is redeeming Adams offspring, not Adam.

[Burninglight]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

They are not two "eternal beings" Maybe that is what is confusing the issue for you. A better question would be how is it that it wouldn't be possible for (Yeshua) Jesus to be God's son when God created man in His image and likeness. Please note God's word was never created; He always was, is and is to come!

Look at it this way: The Bible says that God is Spirit. We agree God is Holy, I hope. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God's "Word" God calls His word made flesh His son. But all things were made by God's word (Yeshua) for Him and through Him. No one can tell you why God has made His Word and Holiness distinct person. He is God and we are His creation. His ways are as high as the heavens are from the earth from ours and His thoughts from our thoughts.

All we have to be concerned with is meeting Him on His terms and accepting His Word has our life depends on it. We are not commanded to learn and understand the essence & nature of what makes God tick. If you could figure that out, you'd be God! The trinity consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Allah and Muhammad didn't understand the concept of the trinity. Christians knew more about it than them or then what is documented in the Quran or Sunnah. Allah implys that the three are the Father, Mary and the son. because, he says don't say three and he also questions Jesus saying did you say take you mother and yourself as two Gods besides me?

That is why I can't understand Christians that convert to Islam. Can't they see this is a sever discrepancy?

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

They are not two "eternal beings" Maybe that is what is confusing the issue for you.

Thank you for your opinion on this matter. However, the Nicene creed, in use by Christians since 325 CE, states that the Son is God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. This creed is the Anglican Church, the Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church and many Protestant denominations. Christians rejecting the Nicene, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals and Mormons are relatively small, recent and not usually considered theologically mainstream.

Look at it this way: The Bible says that God is Spirit. We agree God is Holy, I hope. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit.

I have made this point myself. So we agree that the writers of the New Testament declare that the Holy Spirit is God. They also declare that the Father is God. And that there is one God. But somewhat illogically, most modern Christians claim that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

All we have to be concerned with is meeting Him on His terms and accepting His Word has our life depends on it. We are not commanded to learn and understand the essence & nature of what makes God tick. If you could figure that out, you'd be God! The trinity consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Please don't ask me to believe something which makes no sense, which you cannot explain or justify.

Allah and Muhammad didn't understand the concept of the trinity.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Arab Christians refer to the Christian God with the word Allah. Since God or Allah, has not spoken to me directly on this matter, I cannot comment on what God does or does not understand. It is clear from his writings that Muhammad, on the other hand, like me, does not understand the concept of the trinity. But then again, I doubt that Burninglight or anyone else here really understands the doctrine of Trinity.

[Burninglight]

Okay, you brought up some good points; however, I don't go by the Nicene Creed. You are right no one can explain the trinity, but you missed my point in regards to what Allah believed or Muhammad believed about the trinity. First of all, I admit I as a Biblical Christian cannot explain the trinity, but I can tell you what the trinity is not.

For instances, all us Christians know that the trinity doesn't consist of the Father, Mary (mother) and the son. Biblical Christians can tell you that Jesus is the son of God who is less than God in position, office or function, but we know He is equal in nature, essence and character. For Jesus is the word of God. How God can make His word become flesh? I don't know nor do I know how he created the eye nor nor do I understand why some people have eyes and can't see and why some without them can!

I know enough to say that the Christian Allah is different than the Islam Allah. The Christian Allah has given us His son as a gift for eternal life, but we have to meet God on His terms. Allah is a generic name for god; the god; one god. IMO, Muslims serve a different God than the one of the Christians and Jews; they also speak of a different Jesus Christ than the Biblical one.

You said, "So we agree that the writers of the New Testament declare that the Holy Spirit is God. They also declare that the Father is God. And that there is one God. But somewhat illogically, most modern Christians claim that the Father is not the Holy Spirit."

What? illogically? Of course it isn't, but what is logical about a God who can make His word and Holiness distinct persons. Does God have to fit Human understand to be? I think not. What is logical about God creating the heavens from nothing or a person from dirt or being able to live in the past, present and future at the same time? Yet Christians and Muslims will tell you God can create the heavens by just saying be, and it is!

[McCulloch]

Burninglight, thank you for admitting that your faith is illogical and unreasonable. You'll forgive me if I seek a path of logic and reason, as much as it is possible.

[ttruscott]

...
Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Arab Christians refer to the Christian God with the word Allah. Since God or Allah, has not spoken to me directly on this matter, I cannot comment on what God does or does not understand. It is clear from his writings that Muhammad, on the other hand, like me, does not understand the concept of the trinity. But then again, I doubt that Burninglight or anyone else here really understands the doctrine of Trinity.

To say that "Allah is simply the Arabic word for God" is like saying that B'al, Zeus or Molach is just another word for GOD.

The names of false gods are not another word for the one true living GOD.

Allah is not Jehovah as the Koran makes clear.

Peace to you,

Ted