Can we really go to heaven?

[Mr. Splib]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 40 by Tired of the Nonsense]

And what do you think happened? The body of Jesus turned up missing and a few weeks later his disciples began spreading the rumor of his resurrection from the dead. Just as the priests predicted. Imagine that!

I am not allowed to say nasty things about you so I will try and say it as nice as I can but before I do I will point out that you cannot turn up missing. If you are missing, you don't turn up.

This rather infantile accusation has been thrown at Christianity for ever and a day by atheists and those who have a grudge against God.

At the same time there are hundreds of books out there and I don't know how many web sites that cover the topic adequately to most people's satisfaction, except die hard God haters.

With the might of the Roman Empire behind them, a very heavy stone rolled across the entrance and Roman soldiers guarding the tomb, how do you think anyone was going to take the body away?

To lose the body by natural means would mean death for the two guards, so they were not going to under any circumstances allow anyone to take the body.

In those days, they did not have caterpillars and other mechanical means to move the stone so it would have to be done by hand, but they would have to had got by the Roman guards first and that wasn't going to happen.

Now if Jesus body was removed by his followers, I don't doubt for one moment the Roman government would simply search for it and kill anyone who got in their way or refused to reveal where it was. if that was the case, strange that the record of it has never appeared in ANY history of Palestine.

As for your quaint claim that the body of Jesus went missing and a few weeks later the rumour spread about him rising from the dead. You have forgot one thing. Jesus was seen in the flesh after is resurrection, so no rumour was needed.

All in all, your cynical claims are more unbelievable than the claim that Jesus rose from the dead supernaturally.
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Matthew 28:1 After the Sabbath, in the early dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre. But to their amazement there had been a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord had descended from Heaven, and had come and rolled back the stone, and was sitting upon it. His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. For fear of him the guards trembled violently, and became like dead men.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

I am not allowed to say nasty things about you so I will try and say it as nice as I can but before I do I will point out that you cannot turn up missing. If you are missing, you don't turn up.

True enough. The corpse of Jesus turned up missing. And it never turned up again. You could say nasty things about me if you wanted to by the way, within reason, if it were my forum.
I was once told on another forum, by a Christian man, what he would LIKE to do to me and the horse I rode in on. Such "Christian like" behavior has no effect on me at all, other then some measure of amusement. And it actually serves to make my case for me. I would prefer a relaxation of the rules. But this is otseng's forum and we must abide by his rules.

This rather infantile accusation has been thrown at Christianity for ever and a day by atheists and those who have a grudge against God.

A grave is discovered to be empty, the corpse missing. Based on all common experience with a corpse, and with what a corpse is capable of doing, the cause of the empty grave and missing corpse is overwhelmingly more likely to have been a result of actions taken BY THE LIVING, then a result of actions taken BY THE CORPSE. This is simply a bit of misdirection that Christians have been attempting to use for centuries to direct the attention ANYWHERE but towards the obvious. Because what you refer to as "This rather infantile accusation," is that the body of Jesus was relocated elsewhere by the living. Which in this case would be his followers. It is in fact the overwhelmingly obvious answer. And atheists no more have a grudge against God then you have a grudge against Santa Claus.

At the same time there are hundreds of books out there and I don't know how many web sites that cover the topic adequately to most people's satisfaction, except die hard God haters.

Christians do declare that their beliefs are the one and only true beliefs, I will admit. To that effect they set up exactly the same straw men each and every time to be destroyed to their great mutual satisfaction. What they adamantly refuse to do however is to actually address an actual counter argument. Because that would destroy the illusion provided by all the misdirection. One problem is however, that rather few Christians are actually familiar with the material they are always advising everyone else to read. You MAY read the words, but you subscribe to the mythology. You all know what you assume to be true. You all know what you claim to be true. But rather few of you are actually familiar with what the scripture actually says. As a result the words of the text have been heavily obscured, among yourselves, by Christian mythology. In other words, what you have all smugly decided among yourselves is true, rather than what the actual words of the actual text have to tell us.

With the might of the Roman Empire behind them, a very heavy stone rolled across the entrance and Roman soldiers guarding the tomb, how do you think anyone was going to take the body away?

And here is the first example of Christian mythology in action. So let's have a look at what the words of the text ACTUALLY have to say.

Matthew 27:
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
[65] Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
[66] So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

Now, show me a single mention about Roman guards being stationed at the tomb. What does Pilate say? "You have a watch (a guard): go ahead and make it as sure as you can." Pilate had already given the body to Joseph of Arimathaea, and the priests had no authority to simply take possession of Joseph's property. So they asked permission of Pilate to make the tomb secure. And Pilate points out to them that THEY have a guard, and gives them the order for the tomb to be secured. And the priests certainly DID have a guard, known as the Temple police, members of which would have been right at hand as members of their official body guard. And what do we next see in the actual text? The priests went out to the tomb, the opening of which was covered by a large boulder, and the PRIESTS sealed the stone, and the PRIESTS SET THE WATCH. Not a Roman guard. A guard of their own men.

So am I suggesting that the followers of Jesus somehow managed to sneak in and steal the body of Jesus right out from under the noses of the guard? NO, OF COURSE NOT! Why? Because they didn't have to. Because the guard had secured a tomb that proved the next day to be empty. This is what is commonly known, in colloquial terms, as "locking the barn door after the horse is already gone." The obvious answer to a tomb that eventually proves to be empty, is that the body was already gone "when the barn door was locked." The priests had secured an empty tomb. So who were the last individuals to be clearly in possession of the body? That would be Joseph and Nicodemus, BOTH OF WHOM ARE DESCRIBED AS BEING DISCIPLES OF JESUS (Matt. 27:57; John 19:38-39). So who ALREADY had control of the body of Jesus well before a guard was established at the tomb? THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS.

To lose the body by natural means would mean death for the two guards, so they were not going to under any circumstances allow anyone to take the body.

And a finer example of Christian mythology at work I could not have asked for. Re-read Matthew 27:62-66 above, and then clue us all in as to where it mentions "two guards." Or gives any mention of the exact number of the guards at all. This is a perfect case of what I like to refer to as "not really knowing what it is you think you believe."

In those days, they did not have caterpillars and other mechanical means to move the stone so it would have to be done by hand, but they would have to had got by the Roman guards first and that wasn't going to happen.

And THIS is yet another classic case of misdirection. Moving a stone of several tons is no great feat of engineering, even two thousand years ago. All that is needed is a lever, a fulcrum, a couple of chalking stones, and a hand full of fit men. The job can be done in minutes. Much in the same way that Joseph and company closed the tomb behind them when they left.

Now if Jesus body was removed by his followers, I don't doubt for one moment the Roman government would simply search for it and kill anyone who got in their way or refused to reveal where it was. if that was the case, strange that the record of it has never appeared in ANY history of Palestine.

You should actually try doubting from time to time. It is a necessary check on abject gullibility. The body of an executed criminal would normally have been cast into a mass grave and covered with dirt, or a bit of quick lime if available. But instead Pilate turned over the body of Jesus to the followers of Jesus, so it was theirs and they had every legal right to do with as they saw fit. Joseph was a rich man, and only such a man could have expected an audience with the Roman governor, who undoubtedly provided Pilate with a generous gift for the favor. It would have been expected under the circumstance. Pilate was not a well known sweetie pie known for his generous nature.

Joseph's brand new rock tomb was never intended to be the final resting place for the body of Jesus. First it's important to understand what such tombs were like, and their intended use. Matthew 27:64 uses the word "sepulchre." A more accurate word in English would be "crypt." These "crypts" for the very rich were cut into the living rock. On the inside would be a level slab carved into the rock, for laying out the corpse, and niches cut into the wall. The body would be lain out on the slab and the normal process of decay would be allowed to occur for a few months. Then the bones would be gathered, placed into a stone ossuary with the deceased's name engraved into the sides, and the ossuary placed into one of the stone niches. These were intended to be FAMILY CRYPTS, not the final resting place of a single individual. And certainly not for NON family members. Family members were customarily interred with other family members.

John 19:
[41] Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Joseph's brand new family crypt was never intended to be the final resting place for the body of Jesus. It was late in the day when the body was collected, and the sepulchre was conveniently "nigh at hand" to the place were Jesus was crucified. It was simply used as a private place to clean and wash, and then prepare the body. And well prepared it was!

John 19:
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

One hundred pounds of very expensive aromatic spices and ointments! And yet such a treatment would not have served to arrest, or even delay the natural process of decay. The only obvious purpose it would have served would have been to mask the odor of decay for some few days. Given the state of technology for preserving a body at that time, the body of Jesus could hardly have been better prepared if it was intended to be taken on a trip of several days.

As for your quaint claim that the body of Jesus went missing and a few weeks later the rumor spread about him rising from the dead. You have forgot one thing. Jesus was seen in the flesh after is resurrection, so no rumor was needed.

Unfortunately for this particular Christian myth, NO ONE MENTIONED ANY SUCH THING AT THE TIME IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE OCCURRED! According to the time frame established by the Gospels, the execution of Jesus would have occurred sometime circa the years 27-30 AD. Herod the Great died in 4 BC. Do the math yourself. The very EARLIEST recorded mention of the resurrected corpse of Jesus EVER, occurs in 1 Corinthians, written by Paul circa 55 AD. In other words, there is no indication or record of any such claims concerning a resurrection event for about A QUARTER OF A CENTURY . And then it occurs in an account written by a man, Paul, WHO NEVER MET THE LIVING JESUS, nor was he personally a witness to ANY of the events detailed in the Gospels. The very people in the very best place to have known what actually occurred however, the Jews of Palestine, have always stoutly denied that any such resurrection from the dead occurred. They believed that the whole story was nothing more that a hoax spread by his followers. The followers of Jesus may well have been peddling such a rumor early on, but no one was paying enough attention to even bother recording the claim for about a quarter of a century.

All in all, your cynical claims are more unbelievable than the claim that Jesus rose from the dead supernaturally.

Abject gullibility being what it is, why NOT declare the notion that a missing corpse was logically the result of actions taken by the living to be "unbelievable," and that the only reasonable conclusion therefore is that the corpse must have returned to life and flown away.

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 42 by Tired of the Nonsense]

A grave is discovered to be empty, the corpse missing. Based on all common experience with a corpse, and with what a corpse is capable of doing, the cause of the empty grave and missing corpse is overwhelmingly more likely to have been a result of actions taken BY THE LIVING, then a result of actions taken BY THE CORPSE. This is simply a bit of misdirection that Christians have been attempting to use for centuries to direct the attention ANYWHERE but towards the obvious. Because what you refer to as "This rather infantile accusation," is that the body of Jesus was relocated elsewhere by the living. Which in this case would be his followers. It is in fact the overwhelmingly obvious answer. And atheists no more have a grudge against God then you have a grudge against Santa Claus.

Thanks for your very noble attempt to try and explain the supernatural with the finite thinking of a finite brain, which you have been told many times but it is obviously not sinking in, doesn't work.

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Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 42 by Tired of the Nonsense]

So am I suggesting that the followers of Jesus somehow managed to sneak in and steal the body of Jesus right out from under the noses of the guard? NO, OF COURSE NOT! Why? Because they didn't have to. Because the guard had secured a tomb that proved the next day to be empty. This is what is commonly known, in colloquial terms, as "locking the barn door after the horse is already gone." The obvious answer to a tomb that eventually proves to be empty, is that the body was already gone "when the barn door was locked." The priests had secured an empty tomb. So who were the last individuals to be clearly in possession of the body? That would be Joseph and Nicodemus, BOTH OF WHOM ARE DESCRIBED AS BEING DISCIPLES OF JESUS (Matt. 27:57; John 19:38-39). So who ALREADY had control of the body of Jesus well before a guard was established at the tomb? THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS.

Your vivid imagination is definitely working overtime. And I do love conspiracy theories as you can't beat a good yarn. But then, I should not be surprised because if you believe in evolution you will believe in anything.

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John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first of the sabbaths, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, Peace to you!

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 42 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Abject gullibility being what it is, why NOT declare the notion that a missing corpse was logically the result of actions taken by the living to be "unbelievable," and that the only reasonable conclusion therefore is that the corpse must have returned to life and flown away.

Once upon a time there were three atheists. Daddy atheist, Mummy atheist and baby atheist. They all lived together in a little atheist house. One day, Daddy atheist said to Mummy and baby atheist "Lets all go for a walk in the woods and see if we can find a non atheist and make him sit down and listen to all the silly things that we believe in......."

"Yes lets" said Mummy atheist. "I know what we say is all rubbish but who cares. We have told the story so many times that people think that what we are saying is true. Just give me a few minutes and I will put some porridge on the stove for us when we get back from deceiving everyone."

So she mixed the porridge with some milk and put it on the stove.

"That looks good Mummy" said baby atheist. "When we sit down to eat it can we make up some more lies to tell everyone."

"Of course my little one. By the time you are grown up into a full adult atheist you should be one of the best liars on the planet."

"Oh good Mummy. I always enjoy talking tosh and lots of lies."

"If you come up with something really good, I will give you an extra helping of porridge."

"Oh, goodee" said baby atheist. "lets go deceive."

CHAPTER 2.........

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John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Your vivid imagination is definitely working overtime. And I do love conspiracy theories as you can't beat a good yarn. But then, I should not be surprised because if you believe in evolution you will believe in anything.

Consider this. You are the one who accepts on faith and without fear of contradiction that a corpse came back to life and flew away. And then you charge me with having an over active imagination. Is this the sum total of your rebuttal? Is this the best you can do to defend what is it you have always thought you believed? When I posted my last message to you I noticed that there had been 1677 views. As of this moment, only a few hours later, that number has risen to 2011. PEOPLE ARE WATCHING. Is this non-rebuttal the best you can do by way of defending Christianity? Some might call this a cop out. I would simply call it A LOSING ARGUMENT!

Once upon a time there were three atheists. Daddy atheist, Mummy atheist and baby atheist. They all lived together in a little atheist house. One day, Daddy atheist said to Mummy and baby atheist "Lets all go for a walk in the woods and see if we can find a non atheist and make him sit down and listen to all the silly things that we believe in......."

"Yes lets" said Mummy atheist. "I know what we say is all rubbish but who cares. We have told the story so many times that people think that what we are saying is true. Just give me a few minutes and I will put some porridge on the stove for us when we get back from deceiving everyone."

So she mixed the porridge with some milk and put it on the stove.

"That looks good Mummy" said baby atheist. "When we sit down to eat it can we make up some more lies to tell everyone."

"Of course my little one. By the time you are grown up into a full adult atheist you should be one of the best liars on the planet."

"Oh good Mummy. I always enjoy talking tosh and lots of lies."

"If you come up with something really good, I will give you an extra helping of porridge."

"Oh, goodee" said baby atheist. "lets go deceive."

This is what is known as "a non denial response." It's an attempt, and a rather feeble one I might add, to heap derision on one's opponent without actually addressing the issue at hand. It's also the sort of pointless bluster that follows when one's position has been so thoroughly destroyed that one finds themselves with no factual way to respond. So let's bring the actual issue at hand back into focus, and I am not the issue by the way, and let's find out if you have any substance at all, or if you represent nothing more than an empty bag of baseless assumptions and ludicrous assertions. I am certainly giving you every chance to prove me wrong. What could be more fair then that?

1. The obvious answer to the problem of an empty tomb and a missing corpse is that it is far more likely to be the result of actions taken by the living, rather then actions taken by the corpse.

This being true, if the evidence provides us with individuals who had the means motive and opportunity to have been responsible for the empty grave and missing corpse, then the possibility that the corpse ACTUALLY came back to life and ultimately flew away has virtually zero plausibility whatsoever. So we have every reason and right to ask this question: Based on the information at hand, documents provided by believing Christians, which are after all the ONLY source of information for the story of the resurrection of Jesus, is it possible to discover individuals who had the MEANS, MOTIVE AND OPPORTUNITY to have relocated the missing corpse?

A. MEANS. Joseph, the rich man, was clearly a man of means. Only a man of means could have hoped to have been granted an audience with, and a favor from, the Roman governor. Along with Joseph we have an individual named Nicodemus, the eleven remaining apostles, and some several dozens of other followers of Jesus on hand to potentially be utilized in the undertaking. More then enough means to accomplish the feat. Once the body of Jesus had been procured from the Romans, it was then simply a matter of prepping the body for a journey, using the convenience of Joesph's tomb for privacy, and then taking the corpse elsewhere to effect it's actual final resting place, closing the door {the stone) behind them when they left. Which the disciples of Jesus had every legal, moral and ethical right to do! No great trick or slight of hand required. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE MEANS.

B. Motive. Matthew 27:64 gives us a perfectly clear motive. The disciples wanted to relocate the body of Jesus for the purpose of spreading the rumor that he had returned from the dead. This would have completely stood the entire purpose of the priests for having him crucified in the first place on it's head, and would have served to not only restore the good name of Jesus, and his movement, but would have given the disciples the means with which to glorify Jesus as being clearly the chosen of God. The priests not only thought that the disciples had a motive for doing this, they believed strongly that the disciples had every intention of doing this. And it is exactly in fact what occurred. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE MOTIVE.

C. OPPORTUNITY. The disciples not only had the opportunity to relocate the body, THEY HAD THE BODY, given to them by Pilate to do with as they chose. The disciples of Jesus were in fact the last ones to be in certain possession of the body. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

As long as the disciples of Jesus are the clear and obvious suspects, with essentially NO OBSTRUCTIONS to prevent them from carrying out their plans, THEN THE DISCIPLES ARE THE OBVIOUS ANSWER TO THE QUESTION OF THE EMPTY GRAVE AND MISSING CORPSE. The VERY LEAST LIKELY CLAIM, that the corpse came back to life, left the tomb on it's own, and then eventually flew away, HAS NO REASONABLE PLAUSIBILITY AT ALL!

2. Despite centuries of Christian assumptions and assertions concerning the hundreds of sightings of Jesus "in the flesh," after his execution, the indisputable fact is that there are NO RECORDS OF ANY SUCH SIGHTINGS WHICH ARE DERIVED FROM THE TIME THE EVENT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE OCCURRED. A quarter of a century after the execution of Jesus, a man who wasn't there himself but who had become a committed Christian recorded that as many as 500 of Jesus' followers witnessed the risen Jesus on one particular occasion. But this is simply ONE ACCOUNT, NOT 500 ACCOUNTS! In fact there are only five such accounts in total, Paul's, and the four Gospels, each written anonymously decades later still, by individuals who were also clearly committed Christians.

So you can continue to throw brick-bats at me as if that were some sort of a defense. But without some kind of an ACTUAL defense of your beliefs, you are revealed, here in front of God and everyone, to be as naked as the king with no clothes for all to see; toothless, weaponless and armor-less. And the tale of the flying reanimated corpse is exposed as being every bit as preposterous as logic and reason SHOULD have already demonstrated it to be. For all you know I am an instrument of God's Will, and this is a test. A test which you are FAILING miserably.