Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Strider324
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Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

Post #1

Post by Strider324 »

I have never gotten a straight answer to what should be a critically important question for any Christian - especially as they persistently judge others for violating any of the 613 mitzvot that they contend have NOT been fulfilled - like homosexuality.

Which commandments have been 'fulfilled'?

What specific scripture supports your contention?
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Post #11

Post by charlo921 »

[Replying to post 8 by Strider324]

one must learn the difference between Laws and ordinances.ordinances are of the world meaning man made dogma. now even when one breaks the Law ie sins they only have to ask to be forgiven.but the law is still in effect the ten commandments still stand except Christ became or fulfilled the Sabbath ie Rest.only two sins still require death and thats rape and murder not kill murder..God wants the innocents protected.
Last edited by charlo921 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Strider324
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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Post by Strider324 »

charlo921 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Strider324]

Christ became our Sabbath ie Rest.He brought in forgiveness doing away with ordinances which required death.other than that the law not ordinances remain its still unlawful to steal or cheat on your spouse.ordinances required a priest thats no longer needed ..hope that helps
What scriptural evidence do you have of this? Also, homosexuality is an abomination in the Law and was punishable by death. If the Laws that required death are no longer applicable, then why are homosexuals still considered abominations? Homosexuality was not covered by an 'ordinance'.
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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Post by charlo921 »

[Replying to post 12 by Strider324]

eating pork is written to be an abomination..if we break commandments we pay the price we reap what we sow its more or less guidance on how to be healthy in the flesh...these things are of the flesh Gods after the spirit body He desires love. if we love God he loves us it doesn't matter what sins we have.

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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

Post #14

Post by charlo921 »

[Replying to post 12 by Strider324]


Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...Heres one scripture that lets us know ordinances are done away with.often in translation the words are misused.meaning sometimes it says law in scripture but in the greek its actually ordinance,and vise versa

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Strider324 wrote: [Replying to post 7 by bluethread]

I appreciate you taking the time to offer a response, but it doesn't fully address my question.

If I take your meaning, then all of the OT commandments are still in force - consistent with what Jesus said about 'The Law' every time he was asked.

But here is the conversation I have had with christians almost every day for 40 years:

"Homosexuality is wrong."

"Why?"

"It says so in the bible."

"The bible also says a child should be stoned to death for being disobedient."

"No, Jesus 'fulfilled' all of that OT jewish stuff."

"What does that mean?"

"It means we no longer have to follow the OT commandments."

"So why follow the OT commandment against homosexuals?"

"Um... because that's in the NT."

"But if Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law, and the prohibition against homosexuals was part of the Law in the same way that stoning children was part of the Law - then WHY is the prohibition against homosexuals in the NT, while stoning children is not? Which of the 613 commandments were 'fulfilled' in the manner you suggest - meaning they are no longer applicable - and which were not?"

This is where the cogent answers from these christians always stop.
It is difficult to keep track. Some of the rules and prohibitions from the Old Testament still apply while others do not, according to Christians. Asked how to differentiate between the two, Christians have some difficulty. The easy ones are those which are either explicitly reinforced in the New Testament or repudiated in the New Testament. But no guiding principle can be found in the New Testament as to which of God's commandments can safely be ignored and which ones still need to be followed.
[mrow]Commandment [mcol]Status[row]You shall have no other gods before Me. [col]Still in effect. [row]You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. [col]Idols are still bad. The NT even warns against eating meat sacrificed to idols. Making likenesses seems to be OK for now. [row]You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. [col]Apparently still in effect. Matthew 5 has some elaboration on this point. [row color=red]Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. [col color=red]Christians no longer put blasphemers to death, they feel that this commandment can be safely ignored. [row]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. [col color=yellow]Christians are divided on the issue of Sabbath. Some still keep the commandment as written on the seventh day. Others argue that the day got moved. Others make the sabbath into something spiritual rather than a specific day. While still more relegate the Sabbath to the Law which no longer applies. [row color=red]Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you. [col color=red]If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. [row]You shall not murder. [col]Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. ... Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. ... You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. [row]You shall not commit adultery. [col]Still in effect. Jesus even elaborates teaching that if a man marries a woman who had been divorced, that is adultery. [row]You shall not steal. [col]Unless you need a ride into town (Matthew 21:2) [row]You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. [col]Still in effect [row]You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or[b] his donkey [/b]or anything that belongs to your neighbor. [col]Still in effect [row color=red]These you may eat, whatever is in the water: all that have fins and scales, those in the water, in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat. But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you, and they shall be abhorrent to you; you may not eat of their flesh, and their carcasses you shall detest. [col color=red]Not in effect. [row color=red]Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them. [col color=red]Not in effect. [row color=red]If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. [col color=red]Christians no longer put adulterers to death. [row color=red]You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together. [col color=red]Ignored by most Christians
There are two questions I have for the Christians:
  1. How is it that you distinguish between those commandments of God you follow and which ones you ignore?
  2. What is the source you use to validate the methodology in question 1?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Post #16

Post by bluethread »

Strider324 wrote: [Replying to post 7 by bluethread]

I appreciate you taking the time to offer a response, but it doesn't fully address my question.

If I take your meaning, then all of the OT commandments are still in force - consistent with what Jesus said about 'The Law' every time he was asked.

But here is the conversation I have had with christians almost every day for 40 years:

"Homosexuality is wrong."

"Why?"

"It says so in the bible."

"The bible also says a child should be stoned to death for being disobedient."

"No, Jesus 'fulfilled' all of that OT jewish stuff."

"What does that mean?"

"It means we no longer have to follow the OT commandments."

"So why follow the OT commandment against homosexuals?"

"Um... because that's in the NT."

"But if Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law, and the prohibition against homosexuals was part of the Law in the same way that stoning children was part of the Law - then WHY is the prohibition against homosexuals in the NT, while stoning children is not? Which of the 613 commandments were 'fulfilled' in the manner you suggest - meaning they are no longer applicable - and which were not?"

This is where the cogent answers from these christians always stop.
I understand your frustration with those who make that argument. I think they duck the commandment regarding the rebellious child, because it does not fit the romantic philosophies of western society. I believe that romanticism is antithetical to the Scriptures. Adonai's people are called to live according to Adonai's ways and not the ways of Rome. Yeshua came in part to demonstrate this. He fulfilled HaTorah by living it as we are to do. That is, of course, using the term as an overarching principle. The term when used in context generally refers, in my opinion, to rabbinic comparison.

If you are really interested in the commandment regarding rebellious children, I would be happy to address that. However, if it is just an appeal to Christian romanticism, then you have your explanation.

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Post #17

Post by Strider324 »

[Replying to post 16 by bluethread]

My interest is purely in determining which of the 613 commandments found in the OT are no longer in affect and what scripture, if any, provides the answer. We seem to be in accord that christians are all over the place in their understanding of what the answer is.

Everywhere Jesus is asked about the Law, he is consistent in stating that ALL of the Law must be adhered to. AFAICT, only Paul promulgates the convenient notion that while Jews must continue to follow the Law, that christians are no longer required to - because Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law. I assume that Paul sees it as only a happy coincidence that removing the strictures of the Law resulted in a much easier path to acquiring converts to his new religion.... but I digress.

So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
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Post #18

Post by McCulloch »

Strider324 wrote:So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
Not only that, but the meaning of fulfill in this context. The word fulfill [font=Georgia]πλη�ωθῇ[/font] occurs in the NT, 22 times. Most often it is in reference to a prophesy being fulfilled. The passage we're discussing is Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

That uses a completely different word from Matthew 5:33, "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill [[font=Georgia]ἀποδώσεις[/font] related to the word used in 1 Corinthians 7:3, Galatians 6:2] your vows to the Lord.’" This word has the sense of discharging a duty.

One common Christian teaching from Matthew 5:17, is that the complex set of laws given by God to his people, no longer apply to the faithful, because Jesus somehow rendered it unnecessary for Christians to obey the law, they are now under grace.
Rick Walston, Columbia Evangelical Seminary (CES) wrote:So, is the Law (Ten Commandments) for today? Oh, yes it is. For every person who is not in Christ, the Law is still in effect. It shows them their sin, and if they do not repent, it will be their judge. However, for those who come to Christ in faith and trust in Him, the Law has outlived its usefulness. Remember, the Ten Commandments are not "guidelines" to live by; they are the diagnostic tool God uses to show us that we need His Son. Once we have allowed "doctor" Jesus to save us from our sins, the x-ray is no longer needed (it has done its job).
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #19

Post by bluethread »

McCulloch wrote:
Strider324 wrote:So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
Not only that, but the meaning of fulfill in this context. The word fulfill [font=Georgia]πλη�ωθῇ[/font] occurs in the NT, 22 times. Most often it is in reference to a prophesy being fulfilled. The passage we're discussing is Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

That uses a completely different word from Matthew 5:33, "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill [[font=Georgia]ἀποδώσεις[/font] related to the word used in 1 Corinthians 7:3, Galatians 6:2] your vows to the Lord.’" This word has the sense of discharging a duty.

One common Christian teaching from Matthew 5:17, is that the complex set of laws given by God to his people, no longer apply to the faithful, because Jesus somehow rendered it unnecessary for Christians to obey the law, they are now under grace.
Rick Walston, Columbia Evangelical Seminary (CES) wrote:So, is the Law (Ten Commandments) for today? Oh, yes it is. For every person who is not in Christ, the Law is still in effect. It shows them their sin, and if they do not repent, it will be their judge. However, for those who come to Christ in faith and trust in Him, the Law has outlived its usefulness. Remember, the Ten Commandments are not "guidelines" to live by; they are the diagnostic tool God uses to show us that we need His Son. Once we have allowed "doctor" Jesus to save us from our sins, the x-ray is no longer needed (it has done its job).

The problem with this doctrine is that Paul tell us that the faith of Avram was reckoned as righteousness. The problem many have with understanding Paul and "the law" is that Paul uses the term law to refer to several things from HaTorah to rabbinic teaching to natural laws, as the term Torah can refer to many things from a simple teaching to the commandments given at Sinai. One must carefully examine the context, in order to determine which "law" Paul is referring to in any particular passage. That is why I personally do not see Paul as one who minimizes HaTorah or living in accordance with it. Therefore, I would say that Yeshua fulfilled all of HaTorah in the Scriptural sense and none of it as it is understood in Christian doctrine.

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Post #20

Post by Theodore A. Jones »

bluethread wrote:
Strider324 wrote:
bluethread wrote: Given the use of the term "fulfilled" in relation to passages that do not deal with commandments, it can not mean completed, but must mean fully exemplified what was being spoken of.
Cool, so in what manner did Jesus 'fully exemplify what was being spoken of' regarding the commandments not to murder, not to rape, not to commit the sin of having sex with another man, not to plant different crops together - or indeed the other 609 commandments delineated in the OT?
Well, let's look at the ones you specifically listed.

Not to murder. - Mt. 5:21-22 "Ye have heard that it was said by them (scribes and Pharisees) of old time, Thou shalt not kill ; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say , Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Not to rape - There is no direct commandment in the Tanakh regarding that. However, there are examples that show it to be wrong due to the fact that it disrespects women. In every encounter with a woman, Yeshua shows them respect equal to or greater than to men.

not to commit the sin of having sex with another man - We have no record of Yeshua doing such a thing. Moreover, we see Yeshua showing nonsexual affection toward other men. Thus showing that affection is not wrong, but homosexuality is.

not to plant different crops together - He speaks of the principle in speaking of patching a garment and wineskins. Mk. 2;21-22 "No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old coat; if he does, the new patch tears away from the old cloth and leaves a worse hole. And no one puts new wine in old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the skins will be ruined. Rather, new wine is for freshly prepared wineskins."

That last one could be a bit of a stretch, but the point isn't that we have perfect examples of Yeshua clarifying every commandment. The point is that whatever He did or spoke touching any commandment was not to destroy the law, or the prophets but to fully exemplify them. The context is the light and the bushel basket. His was not extinguishing the light of the Tanakh, but letting it shine.
Ribbi,
The wineskins. A puzzle, aye? "a change also of the law." New covenant. First you gotta have a new law. To fulfill the law one was added, but it was added after the murder and ascension of Jesus Christ. Got it Ribbi? The new law was put into effect through angels by the Mediator. Got it now Ribbi?

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