God's love.

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dio9
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God's love.

Post #1

Post by dio9 »

Because God loves us , we love others; or do we love others so God will love us. What's the difference? What do you think? It's a responsibility question really. Which is a more wholesome way to go about this thing we call love. Do we love people so they will love us back?
This is essentially the difference between old testament love and new testament love . wait a minute here , Have we lost divine motivation here? In the old testament people loved people so God would love them. In the New Testament we get loved anyhow God loves us whether or not we love others . It says God loved us first , Unconditionally. Which do you think is a better practice, or way to love, so God will love us or because God loves us?
Have you heard of Karma? What do you comes back to bless or haunt you. Is the Christian belief irresponsible , just a little bit maybe?

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catnip
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Re: God's love.

Post #11

Post by catnip »

dio9 wrote: Because God loves us , we love others; or do we love others so God will love us. What's the difference? What do you think? It's a responsibility question really. Which is a more wholesome way to go about this thing we call love. Do we love people so they will love us back?
This is essentially the difference between old testament love and new testament love . wait a minute here , Have we lost divine motivation here? In the old testament people loved people so God would love them. In the New Testament we get loved anyhow God loves us whether or not we love others . It says God loved us first , Unconditionally. Which do you think is a better practice, or way to love, so God will love us or because God loves us?
Have you heard of Karma? What do you comes back to bless or haunt you. Is the Christian belief irresponsible , just a little bit maybe?
I never thought of it as a commandment--God loves us because He made us.

I think we love God because we recognize Him as what we have been looking for all our lives in all the wrong places. The right answer. Who loves us as we are? Who knows us perfectly? It is inherent in us to seek it--even if we never find it and we are disappointed until we do. I called it--before I ever heard the term--the spark of the divine. It is God in us, that breath that brought us to life. It is in everyone.

It is perfectly unconditional and we love back naturally, completely, devotedly, profoundly.

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Re: God's love.

Post #12

Post by bluethread »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 4 by bluethread]

Would Jesus' teaching be a good basis? Everything rests on loving God and our neighbors. These are commandments. Does God want to be loved by us? You bet . God loved us first and wants humans to love him in return. God loves so he will be loved.

Scripture tells us God is even a jealous lover. We had better love or else. Not only because we have been loved first but like God love so we will be loved.
What I was questioning was your apparent implication that the patriarchs loved in one way and the followers of Yeshua love in another way. I do not think that is so. What evidence can you provide to support that view.

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Re: God's love.

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 11 by catnip]

If God's love is unconditional, why does the bible refer to people that God hates? I

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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ttruscott
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Re: God's love.

Post #14

Post by ttruscott »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 4 by bluethread]Scripture tells us God is even a jealous lover. We had better love or else.
I didn't say my reply correctly and want to revisit it later, sigh...
Last edited by ttruscott on Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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ttruscott
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Re: God's love.

Post #15

Post by ttruscott »

catnip wrote: God's love is not conditional. If we know that, we know that all things are possible.
PCEC reminds us:
1. GOD hates some people.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."


wherein v 19 is clear that references to eyes, tongue and hands are to people who do these sinful acts...not the acts.

2. Since GOD hates some people, that is, the wicked as in Psalm 11:5 The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion., He either hated them from the beginning of their creation or HE loved them but then HIS love to turned to hate.

3. IF HE hated them for wickedness from their creation then HE created them wicked and that HE cannot do as it contravenes HIS love and HIS righteousness.

So at their creation HE either loved them and HIS love changed to hate or HE was neutral to them until they made their own free will decision to accept HIS deity and HIS promise to heaven whereupon HE loved them or if they rejected HIM as their GOD and so became eternally evil HE hated them having never loved them.

GOD doesn't DO love, HE IS love so if GOD is eternal, HIS love is eternal so doctrine supports the right decision to be that HE was neutral about HIS creation until we separated ourselves eternally by our free will into joining HIS beloved family or becoming HIS hated enemies.

So GOD withholding HIS love proves a condition that had to be first met, that is, a free will decision had to be made, that is, to ask to come under HIS promise of salvation BUT on earth to those whom HE had given the promise, HIS love is unconditional and does not waver in the face of our evil.

No one HE has ever loved loses that love and goes or hell or loses salvation from their sins in any manner at all.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: God's love.

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

Yes, but regardless of if he "hated them from the beginning" or "loved them and then changed to hating them" there must be some conditions that governed his behaviour. Or are you saying God just closed his eyes, stuck a pin in on a list and said "whoever this lands on I hate and whoever it doesn't I'll love"

If he hates some and loves others there must be some standard by which he decides and therefore the love is conditional on that standards (ie I'll not love someone that does XYZ but I will love those that don't do those things). That amounts to contional love.


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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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ttruscott
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Re: God's love.

Post #17

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

Yes, but regardless of if he "hated them from the beginning" or "loved them and then changed to hating them" there must be some conditions that governed his behaviour. Or are you saying God just closed his eyes, stuck a pin in on a list and said "whoever this lands on I hate and whoever it doesn't I'll love"

If he hates some and loves others there must be some standard by which he decides and therefore the love is conditional on that standards (ie I'll not love someone that does XYZ but I will love those that don't do those things). That amounts to contional love. JW
I wrote:
ttruscott wrote: So at their creation HE either loved them and HIS love changed to hate or HE was neutral to them until they made their own free will decision to accept HIS deity and HIS promise to heaven whereupon HE loved them or if they rejected HIM as their GOD and so became eternally evil HE hated them having never loved them.
to express my thoughts (and conclusions) about this that HE held HIS love and hate in abeyance until we proved ourselves worthy of either one. It also suggests the reasons why I think HE accepted some and rejected others with no pins being involved. Did you stop reading before this paragraph?

As the number of times I have posted likes for your posts, I have proven I like the way you think so I expect the content of my theology is new enough to get you off balance as to what I mean.

I have a long essay full of references for why doe HE love some and not others but in short (unless you ask for it) PCEC contends
1. HE created everyone in HIS image with a free will, that is, the ability to choose for themselves to be perfectly righteous in HIS eyes AND able to choose to become eternally perfectly evil in HIS sight and with the opportunity to make these decisions, before the creation of the physical universe. [Free means free from any coercion to choose a certain way and free from any constraint against choosing any way whether from our created nature or from our experiences before the choice.]

2. By our free will we separated ourselves (in relation to HIM) into 2 main groups and one sub group. First are those who, by their free will, put their faith in HIS deity and HIS ability to fulfill in them HIS promise of election by salvation from all their future sins as found in HIS Son. These were all chosen as HIS elect, those promised heaven and salvation and upon whom HE lavishes HIS love. Second are those who put their faith in HIM being a false god and a liar. As the first liar in all of reality they accused HIM of being the first and therefore most evil sinner. They put their faith in the idea that HIS promises of election and salvation were mere manipulative lies of an insane megalomaniac and they turned against HIM. So strong is their faith in HIM being a false god, they knew they would go to hell if HE proved HIMself as GOD but chose rather to go to hell forever than take the chance of having to live with HIM in HIS heaven as HIS Bride forever. These are the ones HE hates, whom HE never loved and who are under HIS wrath of eternal condemnation.

Thirdly, the sub-group of the elect: those elect who rebelled against GOD's plan to judge and banish the reprobate non-elect to the outer darkness. These elect became sinners beloved by GOD but who forced the postponement of the judgement until they could become free of their sin and fully righteous and holy before the judgement day could pass or they too would have been destroyed with their evil friends they idolized, the reprobate tares.

Thus I contend that HE loves those who put their faith in HIS deity and HIS promises of election and salvation but HE hates those who rejected HIS deity and thereby self created themselves as HIS eternally evil enemies. THEN HE created the physical universe and caused all sinners of both types to live together in isolation from the rest of created reality on our prison planet with its reform unit to cure the ones HE loves, the sinful elect, HIS sheep who went astray into idolatry, from their addiction to evil.

The good news is that our lives and the end of our lives conform exactly with our own free will choices. The bad news is that our lives are pre-determined to conform to our own free will choices and the ending we fixed for ourselves by our choice...
goats are not reborn as sheep
the people of the evil one are not reborn as the people of the kingdom
the tares are not reborn as the good seed.

IN SUM: His love is not conditional but who HE would choose to love or to hate WAS conditional upon our free will reaction to HIS revelation that HE was our creator GOD.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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