? A Question For All Former Christians Who Fell Away ?

[YahDough]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.

Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

[Divine Insight]

Hello Divine Insight,

I'm going off topic a little but I feel I must respond whenever this claim is made.

DI>>>I also noticed right away that even the New Testament has Jesus himself rejecting the immoral teachings of the Bible. There are historical claims that the Pharisees had him crucified precisely because of his blaspheme and apostasy against the God of the Bible and Orthodox Judaism. <<<

If you read the 4 gospels from the last supper to the end you'll notice that the Pharisees are only mentioned one time, and that is in the gospel of John, relative to the crucifixon of Jesus. John only claims that there were some Pharisees in the crowd. The moral here is that while Jesus and the Pharisees may have called each other nasty names, the Pharisees were not involved in having Jesus crucified.

If you read the 4 gospels you'll clearly see that it was the Pharisees who put out the 30 pieces of silver bounty on Jesus. You'll also see that it was the Pharisees who accused him first and turned him over to Pilate. You'll also see that Pilate exonerated Jesus and found no fault with him.

The Romans most certainly were not the ones who were behind the crucifixion of Jesus. When Pilate exonerated Jesus it was the Pharisees who were upset about that. As far as I can see it was the Pharisees who basically incited the mob to demand that Jesus be crucified. Supposedly Pilate offered the crowd choice between Barbabas a convicted murder or Jesus. The Jewish crowd were the ones who chose to have Jesus crucified. And they were clearly being incited and led by someone. Who would do that? The Pharisees were the only ones who were interested in seeing Jesus crucified.

To claim that the Romans crucified Jesus makes no sense. There may have been Roman soldiers involved in the actual crucifixion, but it was clearly incited by the Jewish Pharisees, not by the Romans. Pilate exonerated Jesus of any wrong doing, he even washed his hands of the whole affair.

Of course, these rumors can't be trusted anyway. I'm just going by what the gospels say. I'm not suggesting there is any truth to them.


This is Pilate telling the Jewish priests that he finds no fault with Jesus.

Luke.23:14 Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:


John.18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

John.19:4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him. When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.




Pilate found no fault with Jesus and exonerated Jesus of all charges. It was the Jewish priests, the Pharisees, who were crying out, "Crucify him, Crucify him!".

Clearly it was the Jewish Pharisees who incited the mob to back them up. They were the ones who incited this.

Luke 23:
[18] And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:
[19] (Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder, was cast into prison.)
[20] Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
[21] But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
[22] And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
[23] And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
[24] And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
[25] And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.

It was clearly the Jewish priests and pharisees who were determined to crucify Jesus not the the Romans.

Pilate washed his hands of the whole affair:

Matt.27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

According to the gospels Jesus was crucified by the Jewish Pharisees, not by Roman authority. Pilate repeatedly proclaimed Jesus to be an innocent man and exonerated him completely. He complained about it and even washed his hands of the whole affair.

According to the Gospels it was the Jewish priest and pharisees who were determined to have Jesus crucified. There may have been Roman soldiers involved simply because the Jews were under Roman occupation. But the Crucifixion of Jesus is entirely on the hands of the Jewish Pharisees, not on the Romans. The gospel rumors make this perfectly clear.

Where there is any truth to these rumors is a whole other story. But the gospels rumors clearly place responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus squarely on the shoulders of the Jewish Priests and NOT on Pilate or the Romans.

If you're going to believe in the gospels rumors you really have no choice but to believe that it was the Jewish Pharisees who had Jesus crucified, even if Roman Soldiers may have been involved in the process.

Rome did NOT official crucify Jesus, and Pilate clearly exonerated him and referred to Jesus as an "innocent man" in whom he found no fault.

Pilate washed his hands of the whole affair and totally objected to the murder that was clearly carried out at the demands of the Jewish priests and Pharisees. At least according to the Gospel Rumors.

This is the "Gospel Story". Whether it represent any "Gospels Truth" is a whole other question.

[McCulloch]

I have a burden for those who have fallen away from Christ.

Should I pray that the Holy Ghost lift that burden from you?

That's why I prefer to call the Comforter the Holy Ghost instead of the Holy Spirit. It's more scary, more real. (to me). A person shouldn't have to doubt His presence in their lives.

I prefer linguistic accuracy. In older forms of English, the word gast or ghost meant the same as the word spirit. But even by the time of the KJV translation, 1611, the general meanings of the words had drifted. The Greek word pneuma is more accurately translated as spirit since in English, ghost now generally refers to an apparition of a dead person.

You say that a person should not have doubt about the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I had doubt. Is that a moral failing? How does one stop doubt? Can you choose to believe? Or just cover your ears and chant louder?

It sounds to me like you did [receive the Holy Spirit.]. Where did you go from there? Did you study with the help of the Holy Ghost to learn more? When did you quit trying?

Of course I continued to study and I continued to pray to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) for help. A few years after I had become a Christian, I became acutely aware that since I was a late starter in this faith business, not being raised in a Christian home, I did not know the Bible as thoroughly as I wished. I dropped out of University to study the Bible full time at a Bible college. It was there that I gradually came to the realization that I was mistaken to accept uncritically what the authors of the Bible wrote. However, even now, I have not stopped trying. I am willing to listen to arguments and reasons for faith. Convince me.

I believe now that there is no Holy Spirit, so I now believe that I did not receive the Holy Spirit.

I think we should use the word "think" not "believe" when we aren't positive what is happening.

What I said is accurate. I am making statements about the state of what I believe and what I had believed to be true.

Perhaps you just let doubt destroy your initial confidence. Doubt and sin are killers of faith.

Should one suppress doubt? Pretend that it is not there? Why is faith a virtue? To me faith is attributing a greater degree of certainty to specific propositions than it merited by the available evidence.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit?

Like I said, I prefer to call Him the Holy Ghost (Comforter), but yes I did. I did not speak in tongues either. And it took me four(4) water baptisms before I started to feel confident of my salvation. I was a backslider.

So, at least three times you have abandon your faith. We both agree that you were a backslider, but I now perceive that returning to faith is more backsliding than leaving it.

At the time of your fourth water baptism, what made you feel that the previous three were ineffective? I would think that if you had truly started to feel confident of your salvation, you would not need the fourth baptism.

[YahDough]

I prefer linguistic accuracy. In older forms of English, the word gast or ghost meant the same as the word spirit. But even by the time of the KJV translation, 1611, the general meanings of the words had drifted. The Greek word pneuma is more accurately translated as spirit since in English, ghost now generally refers to an apparition of a dead person.

I prefer Holy Ghost because there's too many other spirits floating around.

You say that a person should not have doubt about the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I had doubt. Is that a moral failing? How does one stop doubt? Can you choose to believe? Or just cover your ears and chant louder?

Doubt is not a moral failing. It is a personal weakness that should be confessed to God. Remember this verse when the father was trying to get healing from Jesus for his daughter. He got her healing with this confession.

Mk:9:24: And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

...I continued to study and I continued to pray to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) for help. A few years after I had become a Christian, I became acutely aware that since I was a late starter in this faith business, not being raised in a Christian home, I did not know the Bible as thoroughly as I wished. I dropped out of University to study the Bible full time at a Bible college. It was there that I gradually came to the realization that I was mistaken to accept uncritically what the authors of the Bible wrote. However, even now, I have not stopped trying. I am willing to listen to arguments and reasons for faith. Convince me.

Questioning scripture is not wrong. The Holy Ghost confirms scripture's veracity. We don't have to agree with people who are wrong. We have to agree with God. As for "reasons for faith", what else is there? Who wants to go off into the insecurity of oblivion. (aka "without a clue"). God has given us more than clues in Christ Jesus.

Should one suppress doubt? Pretend that it is not there? Why is faith a virtue? To me faith is attributing a greater degree of certainty to specific propositions than it merited by the available evidence.

We overcome doubt. ! John has a lot of scripture about overcoming. Here's one.

1Jn:5:4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

So, at least three times you have abandon your faith. We both agree that you were a backslider, but I now perceive that returning to faith is more backsliding than leaving it.

At the time of your fourth water baptism, what made you feel that the previous three were ineffective? I would think that if you had truly started to feel confident of your salvation, you would not need the fourth baptism.

I wanted to do it right, the way Peter said.

Acts:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As hopeful believers in Christ we should want the fullness of the Ghost (Spirit) in us.
Because of this baptism I have come to realize that (Christ) Jesus is the (English) name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

[McCulloch]

I prefer linguistic accuracy. In older forms of English, the word gast or ghost meant the same as the word spirit. But even by the time of the KJV translation, 1611, the general meanings of the words had drifted. The Greek word pneuma is more accurately translated as spirit since in English, ghost now generally refers to an apparition of a dead person.

I prefer Holy Ghost because there's too many other spirits floating around.

Really? What other spirits are floating around? Actually, I think that there are more claims about ghosts floating around than spirits. Since the word ghost generally refers to apparitions, it is an incorrect translation of the ancient Greek word pneuma into modern English. Be that as it may, you can continue to prefer inaccuracies.

Doubt is not a moral failing. It is a personal weakness that should be confessed to God. Remember this verse when the father was trying to get healing from Jesus for his daughter. He got her healing with this confession.

Mk:9:24: And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

So you are claiming that if I confessed my doubts in prayer to God, He would help me to believe? I certainly hope that a lack of doubt is not a pre-condition of this prayer working! Anyway, I did pray more than once for greater confidence and less doubt.

Questioning scripture is not wrong. The Holy Ghost confirms scripture's veracity.

Well, the Holy Spirit may have confirmed the veracity of scripture to you, but he seems to have missed that with me.

We don't have to agree with people who are wrong. We have to agree with God.

As far as I now know, I have never disagreed with God. By this, I mean that upon receiving a communication that I know is from God, I have never reacted with disbelief. I can say this with absolute confidence since I am now completely unaware of any attempt by God, either Father, Son or Holy Spirit to communicate with me.

As for "reasons for faith", what else is there? Who wants to go off into the insecurity of oblivion. (aka "without a clue"). God has given us more than clues in Christ Jesus.

You see, when I have doubts about anything important, I try to deal with those doubts in a rational way. I research the issue, I read what other people say about it, looking at it from as many points of view as possible. I assess the available facts and draw my conclusions based on reason, logic and evidence. I do not want insecurity and uncertainty, but I would rather be uncertain than wrong.

We overcome doubt. ! John has a lot of scripture about overcoming. Here's one.

1Jn:5:4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

I guess that I must not have been born of God.

At the time of your fourth water baptism, what made you feel that the previous three were ineffective? I would think that if you had truly started to feel confident of your salvation, you would not need the fourth baptism.

I wanted to do it right, the way Peter said.

Acts:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As hopeful believers in Christ we should want the fullness of the Ghost (Spirit) in us.

So you did it wrong three times and got it right the fourth. That is truly amazing. The New Testament is not that long a read. I would think that a reasonable person, upon realizing that he did it wrong twice would have double checked on the third time. You've been baptized four times. You claim that three of those were done erroneously. How can you be sure that the fourth time is right. Your track record is really not that good.

Because of this baptism I have come to realize that (Christ) Jesus is the (English) name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

This sentence is almost unintelligible to me. How is it that baptism brought you to the realize that, contrary to the teachings of almost all biblical scholars, Jesus the Christ is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Per ... he_Trinity

[YahDough]

I prefer linguistic accuracy. In older forms of English, the word gast or ghost meant the same as the word spirit. But even by the time of the KJV translation, 1611, the general meanings of the words had drifted. The Greek word pneuma is more accurately translated as spirit since in English, ghost now generally refers to an apparition of a dead person.

I prefer Holy Ghost because there's too many other spirits floating around.

Really? What other spirits are floating around? Actually, I think that there are more claims about ghosts floating around than spirits. Since the word ghost generally refers to apparitions, it is an incorrect translation of the ancient Greek word pneuma into modern English. Be that as it may, you can continue to prefer inaccuracies.

I thought you were a Bible student. Jesus cast out unclean spirits almost everywhere He went. Helloooo. Maybe you don't like the phrase "floating around".

Doubt is not a moral failing. It is a personal weakness that should be confessed to God. Remember this verse when the father was trying to get healing from Jesus for his daughter. He got her healing with this confession.

Mk:9:24: And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

So you are claiming that if I confessed my doubts in prayer to God, He would help me to believe? I certainly hope that a lack of doubt is not a pre-condition of this prayer working! Anyway, I did pray more than once for greater confidence and less doubt.

Yes.
Jms:1:6: But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

As far as I now know, I have never disagreed with God.

Not having faith disagrees with God.

At the time of your fourth water baptism, what made you feel that the previous three were ineffective? I would think that if you had truly started to feel confident of your salvation, you would not need the fourth baptism.

I didn't say they were ineffective. I wanted to have the fullness of the Holy Ghost. That is the baptism that saves.
Mk:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I wanted to do it right, the way Peter said.

Acts:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As hopeful believers in Christ we should want the fullness of the Ghost (Spirit) in us.

Because of this baptism I have come to realize that (Christ) Jesus is the (English) name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

This sentence is almost unintelligible to me. How is it that baptism brought you to the realize that, contrary to the teachings of almost all biblical scholars, Jesus the Christ is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Per ... he_Trinity

I am interested in what the Holy Ghost teaches, not New Covenant Pharisees.

Jesus said "I and the Father are One" "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my name."

Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.

Jn:14:9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jn:14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[McCulloch]

I prefer Holy Ghost because there's too many other spirits floating around.

Really? What other spirits are floating around? Actually, I think that there are more claims about ghosts floating around than spirits. Since the word ghost generally refers to apparitions, it is an incorrect translation of the ancient Greek word pneuma into modern English. Be that as it may, you can continue to prefer inaccuracies.

I thought you were a Bible student. Jesus cast out unclean spirits almost everywhere He went. Helloooo. Maybe you don't like the phrase "floating around".

OK, I understand. Maybe you might want to take your lead from the writers of the New Testament on this one. They used the same word pneuma to describe the Holy Spirit and the unclean spirits.

As far as I now know, I have never disagreed with God.

Not having faith disagrees with God.

I don't know that. You, a human, claims that not having faith disagrees with God. Your claim is backed up by similar claims made by other humans, prophets, apostles and others. But I have absolutely no assurance that anything that you or they say is actually from God. So, I remain completely ignorant of any disagreement I have with God.

Because of this baptism I have come to realize that (Christ) Jesus is the (English) name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

This sentence is almost unintelligible to me. How is it that baptism brought you to the realize that, contrary to the teachings of almost all biblical scholars, Jesus the Christ is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I am interested in what the Holy Ghost teaches, not New Covenant Pharisees.

I also am interested in what, if anything, the Holy Spirit teaches. You claim that the Holy Spirit teaches you that Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Other Christians claim that the Holy Spirit teaches them that Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. I have no way to determine which view is correct.

Jesus said "I and the Father are One"

Context is everything.

[font=Georgia]I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.[/font]

The unity that Jesus claimed with the Father is the same unity that he claims to have with his disciples.

[marketandchurch]

I believed in a literal power, that I felt I had access to, that could transcend my situation. I was watching a lot of TBN at that point, and while my faith as a Methodist was largely dead, as it was forced upon since childhood, I decided to give it a shot, as so many evangelicals seemed to be having their lives transformed, through praying themselves out of their situation, and into financial success. I just wanted God to get me out of High School, I was not enjoying it one bit, and I just wanted in on the college experience, and a new life in the city. Neither of that came for me, until I left home entirely to pursuit fashion. I also ended up asking too many questions that got no satisfactory responses, other then having versus that meant nothing to me thrown at my face, and given less then satisfactory answers.

I still envy the christian experience. I go to church every once in a while, just to hear the hymnals, and hear a good sermon. But theologically, philosophically, and morally, I have many issues with Christianity, and my current hope is to somehow make up a version of Christianity, that is far truer to its Jewish roots. My dream version would be a mix of the two, with a little dash of mormonism, and some methodist soul.

[YahDough]

I believed in a literal power, that I felt I had access to, that could transcend my situation. I was watching a lot of TBN at that point, and while my faith as a Methodist was largely dead, as it was forced upon since childhood, I decided to give it a shot, as so many evangelicals seemed to be having their lives transformed, through praying themselves out of their situation, and into financial success. I just wanted God to get me out of High School, I was not enjoying it one bit, and I just wanted in on the college experience, and a new life in the city. Neither of that came for me, until I left home entirely to pursuit fashion. I also ended up asking too many questions that got no satisfactory responses, other then having versus that meant nothing to me thrown at my face, and given less then satisfactory answers.

I still envy the christian experience. I go to church every once in a while, just to hear the hymnals, and hear a good sermon. But theologically, philosophically, and morally, I have many issues with Christianity, and my current hope is to somehow make up a version of Christianity, that is far truer to its Jewish roots. My dream version would be a mix of the two, with a little dash of mormonism, and some methodist soul.

It doesn't sound like you quite fell away from Christ, just diverted maybe for a season. The world seduces a lot of people away from their religions. A Jewish Mormon, huh? Just what we need, another Christian denomination.

[marketandchurch]

I believed in a literal power, that I felt I had access to, that could transcend my situation. I was watching a lot of TBN at that point, and while my faith as a Methodist was largely dead, as it was forced upon since childhood, I decided to give it a shot, as so many evangelicals seemed to be having their lives transformed, through praying themselves out of their situation, and into financial success. I just wanted God to get me out of High School, I was not enjoying it one bit, and I just wanted in on the college experience, and a new life in the city. Neither of that came for me, until I left home entirely to pursuit fashion. I also ended up asking too many questions that got no satisfactory responses, other then having versus that meant nothing to me thrown at my face, and given less then satisfactory answers.

I still envy the christian experience. I go to church every once in a while, just to hear the hymnals, and hear a good sermon. But theologically, philosophically, and morally, I have many issues with Christianity, and my current hope is to somehow make up a version of Christianity, that is far truer to its Jewish roots. My dream version would be a mix of the two, with a little dash of mormonism, and some methodist soul.

It doesn't sound like you quite fell away from Christ, just diverted maybe for a season. The world seduces a lot of people away from their religions. A Jewish Mormon, huh? Just what we need, another Christian denomination.

To be honest, the Mormons are in so many ways a recapitulation of the Jews. They view themselves as the carrier of the Jewish tradition, that they descended from the tribes of Israel, and in very many ways, through ritual & through their communal understanding of male-female relations, the purpose of life, etc, live out a model similar to the Jews. They are now second group, behind the Jews, with the most charity amongst their own. They are in every way walking in the footsteps of the Jewish people, and so did the protestant founders of this nation, who viewed themselves as the New Jews, God's new Chosen people, who would carry on God's message to the world.

I have fallen away in the sense that until I get a satisfactory answer to many of my questions, and until there is a much heavier embrace of the old testament, & a more meaningful attempt to square the New testament with it's Old Testament basis, Christianity isn't really for me.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

I was taught by a New Testament professor that it was the Sadducees who were behind the plot to kill Jesus rather than the Pharisees.