? A Question For All Former Christians Who Fell Away ?

[YahDough]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.

Why did you become a Christian?
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[we-live-now]

John 6:44 says that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". Thus, no matter how much your parents tried to indoctrinate you into their beliefs or religion, if the father didn't draw you, it can't happen - you won't believe. It is impossible to believe unless God causes it to happen; a true believer was drawn inwardly by the Spirit of God the father. There is an appointed time set by the father for everyone to believe, some in this life and most in the next. Most will need to be removed from their natural bodies and brains before they see truth and that won't occur until after physical death.

I have a serious problem with this line of reasoning. How can it be that the god who who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and who is said to be all knowing and all powerful, neglect to draw any individual to him? If I cannot come to God without God drawing me, and God wants me to be drawn to me, then why wouldn't God draw me to him? I can only see two possible logical alternatives for those who believe what is written in the New Testament:

1. Calvinism where God is said to explicitly chosen some for redemption and some for damnation or
2. Universalism where God is said to redeem everyone, no one is lost.

Hey McCullock. First, let me say it is AWESOME to find a person who knows what the bible says (possibly a believer) WHO ALSO USES HIS OWN LOGIC! That is SO RARE in the Church these days. We are taught to blindly follow the pastor and not question what he says.

Now, you bring up an EXCELLENT point and it is the same one I arrived at in the past couple years once I really started to ask myself what the bible says about God. I believe if you really look at scripture and ask God to reveal the truth to you, he will. This truth will completely dismantle the lie of Calvinism! How anyone can reconcile in their own mind a God who is by his very definition "Love" yet creates millions (maybe billions!) of people knowing they are predestined for eternal wrath? This theology is a bunch of GARBAGE and there is SO MUCH scripture to prove it that they either don't have full revelation on or are simply overlooking because it doesn't fit their theology. The one that trips people up the most is where Jesus says "narrow is the gate that leads to life and only a few will find it" and "wide is the path that leads to destruction". Many in my non-Calvinist Church are hung up on these verses. Calvinists read this and say "see, Jesus himself is saying that many are going to be sent to (eternal?) destruction". First, they LOVE to say this because they believe they are saved and are part of the "Chosen few" and it makes them feel good and special like they had done something or earned it somehow. This is not who the "elect" are and they did NOTHING to warrant or earn it. Second we have to ask ourselves if we were God and knew we were going to create millions and billions of people only to send them for eternal torment and punishment in "hell", would we do it? I would say no because that would not be real LOVE which is always other-centered. If our human love can arrive at this conclusion, wouldn't God's perfect, eternal love be much better? YES it is! God has a PLAN much bigger and better than most can comprehend. Because it is SO GOOD and SO LOVING most can not accept it in their human brains because it is not about "me" and it doesn't give me something at the expense of someone else (and make me look and feel better than them!). So, this leaves us only with ONE alternative in your option 2. However, let me warn you ahead of time. This option takes a LOT of faith and revelation in scripture to understand and accept. It will also bring you MUCH persecution from fleshly and religious-minded Christians.

Much of Christianity loves to divide into "sects" that says in some way "I am better than you". This really isn't about Christianity but rather about humanity that makes it about "me" and not Christ. Christ's plan (true Gospel) is about EVERYONE, not just a select few. Christ's plan is about GOD causing us to believe and scripture is very clear that we can do nothing on our own to believe and know God. Matt 11:27 Whom was Christ the savior of? A few? A group? Or the whole world? Most people agree that scripture says Christ is the "Savior of the WORLD" but few believe it. They get all hung on this crazy idea of free will that man has invented. Did man have a "free will" to not be a sinner? Did man have a free will to not become a sinner in Adam? NOPE! So, what about this free will they say that cause us to go to HELL? It really doesn't exist in they manner they believe. Yes, God gives us "free will" between two choices, but he has ordained those choices ahead of time and either result is part of his amazing plan for the redemption of ALL MANKIND. Think of it this way. Our life is like a maze on a piece of paper. There is one entrance at physical birth and one exit that is Christ. You are thrown into the entrance at birth and can make all the "free will" choices you want, but at the end you WILL exit at Christ. This was God's pre-ordained plan for all of mankind BEFORE anything was created. This is how Jesus can be called "The savior of the WORLD" and it be true. If he isn't or he has failed, then 1 John 4:14 and John 4:42 is a LIE!!! But, the amazing and beautiful thing is they are NOT! It's MUCH BIGGER and BETTER than we have been taught or have imagined! I believe scripture teaches that 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:17, John 1:29, 2 Cor 5:14, 1 Tim 2:6, 1 Cor 15:22 ARE TRUE! AMEN! All WILL be saved in the end. There are so many more scriptures I could show you. Look at 1 Tim 2:6 that says "who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." This one verse KILLS Calvinism! Christ gave himself as a ransom for ALL, not just a select few! The second part is EVEN BETTER in that it says that the testimony (or inward knowing or witness of Christ) will be given to each person of the "all" at the proper time!

Now, keep in mind that the bible teaches there are many ages in the thing we call "time". We are in the Church age now where anyone who believes in this age is called the "Elect" and God has a purpose for the elect in the next age. Not all will believe in this age. As a matter of fact, only a relatively small few will and God the father has to make it happen by "giving the testimony" to each person inside them. This is the light of Christ that shines inside and "illuminates every man". John 8:12, John 1:4-5 The rest who don't believe in this life will come to believe before the end because that is the fathers will and he is not like a human who destroys someone who rejects him initially. Remember, they can't accept him unless HE makes it happen. See the crazy logic many are stuck in? Paul says in the end "all knowledge will pass away" and the only thing that will remain is love". Knowledge is what we have learned and stored in our human brains. Some is true and some is not. Please don't confuse knowledge with TRUTH. Once all knowledge (even false knowledge about God) passes away each person WILL see the truth as that is all that is left, and will accept Christ at the end. For unbelievers, this false knowledge (or deception) is in their physical human brains passed along in our fallen bodies since Adam. It is blocking and disconnected from the truth of Christ! However, once removed from these bodies after death, they WILL see the truth. At the end, God will further "refine" them in the Spiritual lake of fire and burn away any remaining unrighteousness but not destroying them, the person. See 1 Cor 3:15! They WILL repent, believe and accept the truth because Jesus "is the savior of the World" and "God wants all to repent". God always gets what he wants.

I know this is a lot and I could give SO Many scriptures to show you this. I pray that some of this resonates in your Spirit so you will seek the truth yourself in scripture.

God bless,

we-live-now

[10CC]

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If I cannot come to God without God drawing me, and God wants me to be drawn to me, then why wouldn't God draw me to him?

Is it possible that God knew you before you were born? Even though he wants all men to be saved, he still gives them the ability to choose, knowing that some will choose not to be saved. So, even if he did call you, he foreknew you would reject him, as some do. But the door is still not closed, you still have time to choose God. So, today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart.

Is this not what the Bible says...

• 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 8:28-30 NIV

So your saying that Mac should choose god and prove god wrong?

[we-live-now]

.

If I cannot come to God without God drawing me, and God wants me to be drawn to me, then why wouldn't God draw me to him?

Is it possible that God knew you before you were born? Even though he wants all men to be saved, he still gives them the ability to choose, knowing that some will choose not to be saved. So, even if he did call you, he foreknew you would reject him, as some do. But the door is still not closed, you still have time to choose God. So, today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart.

Is this not what the Bible says...

• 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 8:28-30 NIV

I don't believe "we" choose God. As a matter of fact, I believe we are totally unable to choose God without God helping us. This is because we are totally and utterly blind and in darkness (fallen disconnected bodies and brains) We can't even SEE him, so it is impossible to choose him. See John 1:5

And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

This "darkness" is our fallen (not connected to God) bodies and brains. We are born "in them" or "in (spiritual) darkness" and can NOT comprehend the light of God at all. We are helpless and God must do something to save us because we don't even know what we are even missing. Here's more:

There are those who rebel against the light;
They do not know its ways
Nor abide in its paths.
14 The murderer rises with the light;
He kills the poor and needy;
And in the night he is like a thief.
15 The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight,
Saying, No eye will see me;
And he disguises his face.
16 In the dark they break into houses
Which they marked for themselves in the daytime;
They do not know the light.
17 For the morning is the same to them as the shadow of death;
If someone recognizes them,
They are in the terrors of the shadow of death.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We are all natural men without the light of Christ inside us.

He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.

God is the one who controls whether we can "see" spiritually or not.

This is why Jesus says in John 6:44 "no one knows the father except the son". Only the SON knows the father that is why he is "the LIGHT OF THE WORLD". Do you see why it was SO IMPORTANT that Jesus come and die so his Spirit could reveal God to us from inside us?

This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

Even though this verse starts about John the Baptist, it also says that Jesus was sent to be the light of each of us inside to reveal the father to us in our darkness or our fallen brains. Did you see how many are to come to believe through him shining the light? ALL! AMEN! (Btw - look up the original word that was translated as "might believe" it only has the word "might" in the translations a couple times when it is referring to God saving all humanity, etc. The rest say something WILL happen! I think this is a WEAK translation because the translators themselves didn't believe it.)

So, none of us can choose God because we simply don't know him nor can we see his light in our natural brains or bodies. God is the one who controls whether we can even see him or not to even make a choice! But, the beautiful thing is that God gave us his Son who is "the light of EVERY man" to light our way. His "Word" (Christ) is a lamp for our feet!

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Do you see that? Isn't that AMAZING!?! How many times have we read right over this verse and NEVER saw what it was saying??? Jesus is the TRUE light that shows the father TO EVERY PERSON that has ever existed and will ever exist but at God's appointed time. Once they see the beauty of Christ, they WILL choose him. It will be like someone offering you freely 1 Billion cash with NO STRINGS, you will take it! But, again as I said before, God will not have everyone believe in this life (Church age). Everyone has an appointed time to believe so we can relax and trust him.

God bless,

we-live-now

[OnceConvinced]

I was indoctronated into it from birth. I was given no other options. Jesus and the bible was taught as fact along with everything else you learn as a small child. There was no difference between the teaching that Jesus was the one true God and 1 + 1 = 2.

At 7years old I fully beleived in Jesus and believed that I needed to give my life to Christ. I continued to believe without question and as a teenager began to grab the bull by the horns" as it were, serving God because I desired to (I genuinely believed in and loved Jesus) not just because my parents expected me to.

OnceConvinced, John 6:44 says that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". Thus, no matter how much your parents tried to indoctrinate you into their beliefs or religion, if the father didn't draw you, it can't happen - you won't believe. It is impossible to believe unless God causes it to happen; a true believer was drawn inwardly by the Spirit of God the father. There is an appointed time set by the father for everyone to believe, some in this life and most in the next. Most will need to be removed from their natural bodies and brains before they see truth and that won't occur until after physical death.

we-live-now

I always beleived that God HAD chosen me. That he DREW me to him. No doubt you believe God has chosen you. How do you really know this?

[Nickman]

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If I cannot come to God without God drawing me, and God wants me to be drawn to me, then why wouldn't God draw me to him?

Is it possible that God knew you before you were born? Even though he wants all men to be saved, he still gives them the ability to choose, knowing that some will choose not to be saved. So, even if he did call you, he foreknew you would reject him, as some do. But the door is still not closed, you still have time to choose God. So, today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart.

Is this not what the Bible says...

• 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 8:28-30 NIV

To god, the door is closed because he already saw your choice to not accept him. This is where the line of omniscience VS free will has contradiction.

[Nickman]

God chose me when I was born by giving me parents and family members that would indoctrinate me. Once I was able to think for myself, God "un-chose" me.

[we-live-now]

God chose me when I was born by giving me parents and family members that would indoctrinate me. Once I was able to think for myself, God "un-chose" me.

Hey Nickman...

According to Romans 11:29 God's calling can NOT be changed because he does not change. This is GREAT NEWS! If you are called in this life, IT WILL HAPPEN no matter what you do or don't do. Also, all will be saved in the end because Jesus truly is "the savior of the World" as the bible declares in multiple places.

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

More translations: http://biblehub.com/romans/11-29.htm

For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob".

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

God bless,

we-live-now

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 126 by we-live-now]

Offering the false hope of salvation and cheap grace for unrepentant sinners and unbelievers is a heresy.

And it seems to be contrary to the teachings of Christ.

Mt:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What do you have to say about this?

[we-live-now]

[Replying to post 126 by we-live-now]

Offering the false hope of salvation and cheap grace for unrepentant sinners and unbelievers is a heresy.

And it seems to be contrary to the teachings of Christ.

Mt:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What do you have to say about this?

YahDough, do you have any other verses besides this one? To build an entire doctrine on ONE verse is dangerous, wouldn't you agree? I hope you saw that my beliefs were from many verses some from old testament and some from new.

I would be glad to share what I believe this verse means, but before I do let me ask you who does Jesus say he was sent to minister to? Was Jesus a teacher of the old covenant of law or the new covenant of Grace?

we-live-now

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 126 by we-live-now]

Offering the false hope of salvation and cheap grace for unrepentant sinners and unbelievers is a heresy.

And it seems to be contrary to the teachings of Christ.

Mt:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What do you have to say about this?

YahDough, do you have any other verses besides this one? To build an entire doctrine on ONE verse is dangerous, wouldn't you agree?

No. Not necessarily. Here are two of my favorites that pretty much sez it all.

Rom:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Mk:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I hope you saw that my beliefs were from many verses some from old testament and some from new.

You do a spin on many of them. What about this one:
Mt:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would be glad to share what I believe this verse means, but before I do let me ask you who does Jesus say he was sent to minister to?

First the Jews and then the Gentiles.
Jesus came to be a ransom for many.

Mt:20:28: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jn:10:10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Was Jesus a teacher of the old covenant of law or the new covenant of Grace?

Christ Jesus is/was the LORD of both the old and new covenants.

Jn:8:58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.