Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream out...

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Aetixintro
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Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream out...

Post #1

Post by Aetixintro »

There is an Agnostics' Slipstream out that changes how Agnosticism will be presented in near future and it has this text to it:

"The Slipstream Argument - The requirements to Agnosticism increase..."

"One of the original formulations:

I'd like to inform you that, over the Pascal's Wager, now by new modal considerations, rather than to exist or not, that the Agnostics are logically impelled, by "ethics, meaning, (perh. sec.->) definition of God, and entailment of Heaven" to consider God, that is, they now enter first these 4 necessary entities (or else leaving Agnosticism altogether) before considering the reality of exactly God. This constitutes a refinement from earlier!

The Slipstream Argument vs. Pascal's Wager

Wikipedia presents Pascal's Wager in this way:
"It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.).[1]"

The Slipstream Argument, however, REQUIRES the wondering agnostic to assume seriously the 4 (Christian/variations for other religions) constituents, such as Meaning, Description of God, Ethics (10 Commandments) and the Entailment of Heaven "into personal data-set". Without these, and you can check on Agnostic's honesty, the "emotional" Agnostic can easily be dismissed. This is a HARDER consideration of the Existence of God than Pascal' Wager and also takes higher position into eternity."

In order to fulfill the requirement for posting here, I have this question for the Agnostics, are you ready to update on Agnosticism, please?

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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #21

Post by Divine Insight »

Aetixintro wrote: Like yourself, you are Hebrew-Agnostic/Judaism-Agnostic and I guess you live the life of religious Hebrews one strain or other. Shouldn't it be sufficient? Do you fear you do not enter Hebrew-Heaven? What is your faith? It holds the test of time, time of death? :)
I'm not Hebrew-Agnostic. I'm confident that Hebrew religion is false

I am Agnostic with respect to Buddhism and other Pantheistic forms of mysticism. Simply meaning that I have no clue whether they are a true description of reality or not.

As far as fears go concerning these i issues I have none.

If secular naturalism is true and I'll just cease to exist when I die, that's fine. I don't fear that fate.

If Buddhism or pantheism in general is true, then again I have nothing to fear. I would simply face a reincarnation based on my own karma, and I see nothing to fear in that. In fact, if that turns out to be true I suspect my next life will be far better than this one. Assuming Karma is true. :D

I don't really see the point in considering the Hebrew God since it's clearly false. However, given the multitude of self-contradictions in that mythology it would be impossible to know what my fate might be even if it was true. I guess as follows:

The Hebrew God is supposed to be all-righteous and all just. Well, if that's true, then I can't imagine going to anywhere but paradise in that religion. So even if it was true my destiny there should be quite pleasant.

As far as I can see the worst possibly scenario (for me personally) would be if secular naturalism is true. Only because it would assure the end of my existence. However, that fate doesn't frighten me. Moreover, if it happens to be true, then believing in these other religions isn't going to change that fact anyway. :D

In fact, as far as I can see the only religions that seem to demand that our belief will determine our fate are the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

And it is extremely unclear how that could be made to work whilst maintaining that the God of these religions is truly righteous and just. I see no reason to believe in these religions just in a desperate effort to try to avoid death. That would be silly wouldn't it?

In fact, that would be a faith based on fear, right?
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Re: Agnostics be aware...

Post #22

Post by ttruscott »

Aetixintro wrote:
Through ethics, meaning and the word of God comes faith, exactly right!
Doubtful: Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is hearing the word about Christ.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works [of ethics or understanding], so that no one can boast.

The word of GOD does not need faith to hear, it comes a as gift and produces faith. Mix this all up with our works of ethics and our own understanding is theo-babble. At least I can't make anything of it yet.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #23

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 10 by Aetixintro]
But why must I make that leap. There is no consensus among believers to what he even represents. It is accepted by many denominations of believers that the doctrines of other denominations are fatal blasphemy. That is even within Christianity never mind between Judaism and Christianity. What exactly must I believe?

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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #24

Post by wiploc »

Aetixintro wrote: [Replying to post 13 by wiploc]

Interesting.

First, in being this agnostic about the lion, I may very well take these universal tests in order to be agnostic about the lion.
You say that first you make take those tests, but first you already don't know that the lion is there.

You don't need to take tests in order to not know something. You are agnostic about the lion before you take even the first test, just as we are agnostic about your god without taking any tests.

You show up here demanding that we take tests before we can be agnostics, but if we don't know whether gods exist, then we are--by definition--already agnostic.

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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #25

Post by Aetixintro »

Divine Insight wrote: If Buddhism or pantheism in general is true, then again I have nothing to fear. I would simply face a reincarnation based on my own karma, and I see nothing to fear in that. In fact, if that turns out to be true I suspect my next life will be far better than this one. Assuming Karma is true. :D
I don't really see the point in considering the Hebrew God since it's clearly false. However, given the multitude of self-contradictions in that mythology it would be impossible to know what my fate might be even if it was true. I guess as follows:

The Hebrew God is supposed to be all-righteous and all just. Well, if that's true, then I can't imagine going to anywhere but paradise in that religion. So even if it was true my destiny there should be quite pleasant.
That's one hell of a faithful Agnostic. Usually, if faith goes as far as yours, I hardly call them Agnostics. However, I see your point as to the various scenarios as death happens.
In fact, as far as I can see the only religions that seem to demand that our belief will determine our fate are the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

And it is extremely unclear how that could be made to work whilst maintaining that the God of these religions is truly righteous and just. I see no reason to believe in these religions just in a desperate effort to try to avoid death. That would be silly wouldn't it?

In fact, that would be a faith based on fear, right?
I've found Catholic Online (http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077) and the word of the Pope, Pope Francis, and they write:
Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.
The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. On Good Friday we all pray:

Let us pray also for those who do not believe in Christ,that, enlightened by the Holy Spirit,they, too, may enter on the way of salvation. Almighty ever-living God,grant to those who do not confess Christ that, by walking before you with a sincere heart, they may find the truth and that we ourselves, being constant in mutual love and striving to understand more fully the mystery of your life, may be made more perfect witnesses to your love in the world. Through Christ our Lord.
It's good, just read the whole thing, please.
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Re: Agnostics be aware...

Post #26

Post by Aetixintro »

ttruscott wrote: Doubtful: Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is hearing the word about Christ.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works [of ethics or understanding], so that no one can boast.

The word of GOD does not need faith to hear, it comes a as gift and produces faith. Mix this all up with our works of ethics and our own understanding is theo-babble. At least I can't make anything of it yet.
I answer with Catholic Online (http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077) and the word of the Pope, Pope Francis. Or just see the answer to Divine Insight, Post 25, just before this answer to you.
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Post #27

Post by Aetixintro »

postroad wrote: But why must I make that leap. There is no consensus among believers to what he even represents. It is accepted by many denominations of believers that the doctrines of other denominations are fatal blasphemy. That is even within Christianity never mind between Judaism and Christianity. What exactly must I believe?
The leap of faith seems necessary regardless of which religion you choose (to be Agnostic about). Jesus is a kind of nut, I agree. Position yourself? Or choose Islam or Judaism or any other (Buddhism, Hinduism etc.). I can't really tell you to what exactly to believe. Try to comply with one religion as honest as you can? And in complying with that religion, your honest efforts can be judged, even as Agnostic? True? :)
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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #28

Post by Aetixintro »

wiploc wrote: You say that first you make take those tests, but first you already don't know that the lion is there.

You don't need to take tests in order to not know something. You are agnostic about the lion before you take even the first test, just as we are agnostic about your god without taking any tests.

You show up here demanding that we take tests before we can be agnostics, but if we don't know whether gods exist, then we are--by definition--already agnostic.
The first thought is that my apartment is in the state that I've left it in, also depending on who remains there regarding people.

What you describe is a kind of naive Agnosticism and I think it's shallow to be that way about such a serious question. By the way, it's not my God. I use God as the Almighty regardless of religion, so Brahman, Buddha, YHWH, Allah, etc.

Just a warning, maybe your depth of Agnosticism will be judged as such, to the extent you have made efforts toward that end. As such, "irreligious" children/infants are only so, children/infants.

Good? :)
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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #29

Post by Divine Insight »

Aetixintro wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: I don't really see the point in considering the Hebrew God since it's clearly false. However, given the multitude of self-contradictions in that mythology it would be impossible to know what my fate might be even if it was true. I guess as follows:

The Hebrew God is supposed to be all-righteous and all just. Well, if that's true, then I can't imagine going to anywhere but paradise in that religion. So even if it was true my destiny there should be quite pleasant.
That's one hell of a faithful Agnostic. Usually, if faith goes as far as yours, I hardly call them Agnostics. However, I see your point as to the various scenarios as death happens.
It's not a matter of faith. It's based on pure logic. All theists of the all Abrahamic religions are in agreement on at least one point. And that it the idea that their God represents the ultimate righteousness and can be trusted in that regard.

If that's the case, then I don't need any "faith" to recognize that if their claims are true my destiny would absolutely need to be a heavenly paradise. In fact, it couldn't even depend upon this God making a decision about. This God would have no choice but to send me to his heaven. Any other decision would be unrighteous.

So there's no need for me to have faith that if a truly righteous God exists my destiny is paradise. That would be an automatic given that follows from logic.

Still I can be agnostic on whether such an idealized God actually exists. ;)
Aetixintro wrote: It's good, just read the whole thing, please.
I read the whole thing I don't see where that changes anything.

For one thing the opinion of the Catholic Church is totally irrelevant. Or any other Christian theists for that matter.

Secondly, do any of these people have a clue what it might actually mean to "confess Christ"? I don't think they do. In fact, from what I can see they all seem to think that Christ has some sort of ego that needs to be appeased by having petty humans confess that he's the King of Kings and Lord of Lords or whatever.

I can't imagine any all-righteous God being worried about such petty egotistical things.

So clearly these churches and theists have no clue what they are talking about.

Here's how simple it is:

If there exists a truly righteous God, then I have nothing to fear.

Period Amen.

If any theist thinks that I would need to fear a righteous God, then either they don't know me, or they have a totally different idea of what righteousness even means.

This really doesn't even have anything to do with agnosticism.

The only God I would need to fear would be an unrighteous God. And I'm sure that Christian theists don't want to proclaim that their God is unrighteous.

So there's no "faith" required on my behalf at all. All that's required is logic 101.

This may not apply to everyone. But I'm not talking about everyone. I only need to worry about myself. :D

And I know that no righteous God could possibly condemn me because that very act would be an unrighteous act.

It's very simple. No faith required.
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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #30

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 29 by Divine Insight]

Alright! You seem to be a splendid person, all duties to the World undertaken (already)! I agree with you (believe it or not)! :D
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