Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Elijah John
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Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

I've been watching Leah Remini's expose on Scientology, and their authoritarian and repressive tactics. It is a "crime" in Scientology to even question their church, (at least publicly) it's doctrines, practices or leaders. Those who do are labeled "suppressive persons".

Likewise, can a Jehovah's Witness get in trouble with their organization if they do the same? That is, if they even question the beliefs and practices of the Watch Tower Society?

For instance, if a JW debating here on this site were to concede a point that their debating opponent makes against the WTS on this debating forum, (it's theology or practice) would there be any punishment, "correction" or sanction from their elders?

If say, a JW were to admit, "yeah, there is no Biblical prohibition against the celebration of birthdays, and I can't see why the WTS prohibits such observances", would that debater get in trouble for publicly questioning a JW practice?

On a similar note, do Jehovah's Witnesses shun those who have left? Say, if a son leaves and the father stays, is that father supposed to cease communication with that "wayward" son, if the son is determined never to come back into the fold?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #31

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
But the congregation (or church) is made OF individuals.
So you are in a congregation then?

Anyone who is in the Body of Christ is in the Church, and has Christ as their head. Because that is what the church is - the Body of Christ, made of people.
So that I am clear you are saying 'yes', you're in a congregation.
I am a member of the Body of Christ - which is the church (as defined above) - yes.


Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Tell me, has the holy spirit appointed overseers who have been purchased with the blood of Christ to shepherd your congregation?

(Acts 20:28 - Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.)

The entire church (congregation) has been purchased with the blood of Christ. You understand that, right?

"... to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of His own Son."
Do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10)
A - it is not MY congregation. The Church belongs to Christ.

B - We are placed where Christ places us in His Body (His Church). And I don't recall Him ever saying - "All men will know you are my disciples if you have men reaching to be overseers of 'your' congregation".

And every religion has so-called 'overseers'; does that mean that they are all following the Truth?

We must focus upon Christ first and always. He will lead us into all truth and He will place us where He wants us in His Body (the congregation). He is the Shepherd of His sheep. His are the commands those who love Him keep. It is to Him that we are to bear witness. Are we also to serve one another; sharing also as we have been given, helping to build one another up in Christ? Of course.


There is a question still pending in post 26 (from post 23) that you said you would answer if I answered. I answered it. Will you answer it now also?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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tam
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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #32

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote: Missed this one sorry. Only caught it because DI responded to it.
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote: [
quote="2timothy316"]
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

That is unless a baptized person writes the branch requesting to no longer be recognized as a Jehovah's Witness or wants to join another religion. Though they have not done any of the other serious sins noted in this thread to request such a thing could be the most serious of all. Denial of Jehovah and Jesus is the worst thing a person can do after being baptized. To promise in prayer that they dedicate their life to Jehovah and break that promise to serve another religion, is very serious. 1 John 2:22-23

Leaving a religion does not mean that one is leaving God or His Son.
There is only one cramped road and one narrow gate.
Yes... this does not contradict anything I said.

Christ is the gate; the 'cramped road' would be the road (or path) one walks directly behind Him, eyes on Him, following Him.



“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.� (Matthew 7:13, 14)
Yes.
That means there is only one teaching. The right teaching is either going off on your own or being part of a group of people that believe the same thing.


These verses do not mean either of these things.
....and you know this because.... This is not a complete answer.
Because Christ is the gate for His sheep. As He said:

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. John 10:9

We must enter through Him.

I don't know how you get that it is referring to being in a group or being alone.
The right teaching is to listen to and follow Christ.
What books of the Bible don't contain the teachings of Christ?
Do you disagree with what I said? Why did you suddenly bring up the Bible?

Some of His words are recorded in the bible - but He Himself is not the bible - He is the living Word of God, a living person to whom we must come to and follow.

Where Paul (at first) said TO judge; Christ says 'do not judge'. Both of these things are recorded in the bible, but only one of them is what Christ taught. Paul could have been mistaken or we could be misunderstanding the context of his letter and the situation he was dealing with. Not everything Paul wrote was for us - rather than for the people he wrote to, concerning an issue specific to them in their time. Either way, should we not stick with Christ? How can one go wrong if one is following and obeying Christ?


Christ said to wash one another's feet. Christ said to eat and drink of Him, and that unless one does this, one has no life in themselves. The WTS teaches her members not to eat and drink of the body and blood of Christ. That you do not need to do this; that He was not speaking to you.

So who are you listening to? "Overseers" who tell you Christ was not speaking to you and that He only meant this instruction for a handful of Christians? There is no room for that "interpretation"! Not when Christ said to the apostles - "Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Did He not tell them to eat and drink of Him and to keep doing this in remembrance of Him?

"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 14:21
Sometimes a person HAS to leave a group in order TO follow Christ.
Indeed, one even no longer lives for themselves. (1 Cor 5:15) However, no where is the commandment to stay alone. In fact as you well know the Bible says the exact opposite. The letters to the Romans and Corinthians where not to individuals.
Why are you going back to this whole 'alone' thing? This has already been addressed.
It can't be both ways. People that go off by themselves are not teaching the same thing. I have talked to many of them. They are no unified group of people. Jesus said his followers 'will all be one'. John 17:21. Tam you are not 'one' in what you teach with others like yourself that go off by themselves.
Probably because not everyone who goes off 'on their own' are together to begin with. Just as your group is not unified with or teaching the same things as the RCC or the LDS, or being one with any of these many sects in Christianity (the religion).
That's right JW do not teach the same as RCC, LDS or you. However walk into an RCC church and they don't all teach the same thing. They are not unified in their own 'church'. Don't even get me started on the teachings of LDS or Baptists from one church to the next. They too are not 'of the same mind'. Yet walk into any JW Kingdom hall and all of the teachings are the same. We are 'of one mind'.


Yes, but what good is that "one mind" when you are not obeying Christ? When you are listening to men instead of Christ?

You and your loner folks do not have that.


You're still on the whole loner thing when that has already been addressed? What are you not understanding? There are groups that you believe to be false; why can you not understand that there would also be individual who would be false?

All the "groups" are not one. Why do you insist that all the individuals are one?
Nor do you have love among yourselfs.
How could you know something like that? What in the world makes you think my brothers and sisters and I do not have love among ourselves?
Why? Because you don't even know who each other are.
Really, do you know every single person in the JW religion? Because unless you do, and according to your reasoning, I guess it can be said that you do not have love among yourselves.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #33

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: Tell me, has the holy spirit appointed overseers who have been purchased with the blood of Christ to shepherd your congregation?

(Acts 20:28 - Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.)

The entire church (congregation) has been purchased with the blood of Christ. You understand that, right?

"... to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of His own Son."
You didn't answer my question and made a straw man to hit.
Has the holy spirit appointed overseers for the congregation? Can I please get a clear yes or no.
Do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10)
A - it is not MY congregation. The Church belongs to Christ.

B - We are placed where Christ places us in His Body (His Church). And I don't recall Him ever saying - "All men will know you are my disciples if you have men reaching to be overseers of 'your' congregation".
Another straw man. I didn't ask how to we were to know Christ's congregation. I asked do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10) Yes or no please.
There is a question still pending in post 26 (from post 23) that you said you would answer if I answered. I answered it. Will you answer it now also?
You've answered nothing. But I will answer your question anyway. Anyone that says things such as "Paul could have been mistaken or we could be misunderstanding the context of his letter and the situation he was dealing with. Not everything Paul wrote was for us". Anyone that doesn't take 2 Timothy 3:16 as fact is not part of Jehovah's congregation. Anyone that makes excuses as to why they don't follow the Bible in my view is not part of God's congregation. Jesus in a prayer said to his Father, “Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.� John 17:17. Jesus is not the highest being in the universe and anyone that denies that is not part of Jehovah' congregation. Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I am." John 14:28.

Jesus appeared to Paul. Acts 9:6 says that Jesus told Paul what to do, “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.� There is no indication that Jesus ever stopped. In fact 1 Cor 1:1 says, "Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will." Paul was called by Jesus to be an apostle. Do you know what apostle means? It means 'one sent forth'. This means that disfellowshipping was not Paul's idea. For Paul only follows Jesus' leadership. That means what He wrote was at Jesus' request. All the Bible writers are writing at Jesus' request. Revelation 1:1 tells us a clue how the Bible writers got their information. "Jesus Christ, which God gave him...And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John." Anyone that rejects that teaching, I reject their teaching. Anyone that rejects a single verse in the Bible, in my view, are not part of God's congregation. For when a person tosses parts of the Bible then they are relying on their counsel as to what right and what is wrong. They are following themselves not Jesus no matter that they claim. Because if they did, then they'd be united.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #34

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
Why? Because you don't even know who each other are.
Really, do you know every single person in the JW religion? Because unless you do, and according to your reasoning, I guess it can be said that you do not have love among yourselves.
I do know who they are. I know what they follow and what kind of people they are. So yes I do know every single one of them. Millions are like me, with the same goals and hopes. I can walk into any Kingdom Hall in the world and they are my friends before I step a single foot in the building. They know who I am and why I am there.

Can you do this with another person that believes as you do? Because if so, I know another person that thinks as you do about 'alone with Jesus' and they are very different in their views from yours. They don't share your goals or hopes. I have never walked into a Kingdom Hall to be met with people that didn't have the same views as I do. I can even read a post on a message board and by what they type I can tell you if they are a JW or not.

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #35

Post by tam »

May you have peace!
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: Tell me, has the holy spirit appointed overseers who have been purchased with the blood of Christ to shepherd your congregation?

(Acts 20:28 - Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.)

The entire church (congregation) has been purchased with the blood of Christ. You understand that, right?

"... to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of His own Son."
You didn't answer my question and made a straw man to hit.
It is not a strawman, it is a simple question. Are you going to answer it or ignore it?
Has the holy spirit appointed overseers for the congregation? Can I please get a clear yes or no.
Define overseer.
Do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10)
A - it is not MY congregation. The Church belongs to Christ.

B - We are placed where Christ places us in His Body (His Church). And I don't recall Him ever saying - "All men will know you are my disciples if you have men reaching to be overseers of 'your' congregation".
Another straw man. I didn't ask how to we were to know Christ's congregation.


Didn't you? Then what may I ask is the point of you asking:

I asked do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10)

There is a question still pending in post 26 (from post 23) that you said you would answer if I answered. I answered it. Will you answer it now also?
You've answered nothing.


Then might I suggest you go back and read again? Or I will just copy-paste what I wrote:
It was not a deflection. It was a pointed response to what you seem to see as a problem associated solely with individual people. That same problem would exist with sects and groups. If you feel you can overcome that problem with regard to a group, why not with regard to an individual?


As for the answer to your question, for me, it is quite simple. I would listen to Christ. I would test what others are claiming or teaching against the light that is Christ. If something is in conflict with what He taught (in word and deed), how could it then be true?

Can truth be in conflict with truth?

Post 26. Not sure how you missed it.

But I will answer your question anyway. Anyone that says things such as "Paul could have been mistaken or we could be misunderstanding the context of his letter and the situation he was dealing with. Not everything Paul wrote was for us". Anyone that doesn't take 2 Timothy 3:16 as fact is not part of Jehovah's congregation.



Is that what Christ taught? That no one can be part of Christ (or God) if they do not believe that:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"



This is what Christ had to say about the scriptures:


"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; these are the scriptures that testify about Me; yet you refuse to come to Me to have life."



The scriptures testify to Him. But we must come to HIM if we want to have life. Obviously we must also come to Him if we want to be part of Him; His Body, His Bride, His Church.

And I have no problem with what Paul said. But he was not referring to his own letters when he spoke of scripture.


“These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.� Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. Luke 24:44-47

As for the verse in timothy:

Scripture is inspired (god-breathed)... scripture is therefore given 'in spirit'. Like the revelation given to John. He was in the spirit; everything he wrote he received from the Spirit, and he was specifically told to write down those things that he saw and heard. Luke on the other hand wrote according to what he investigated, and what other people told him. The disciple Christ loved wrote what he witnessed (as an apostle) with Christ.

Not everything in the bible is scripture (and so not everything is inspired - given in spirit).

Some of what Paul wrote he received from God, and some he reasoned to himself. He said this himself.

1 Corinth 7:10

To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord)...

1 Corinth 7:12

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord)...



So there is nothing wrong with the timothy verse - people just read more into it than it actually states. Scripture is useful for those things it states, but that does not make scripture inerrant (Jeremiah 8:8), and it does not refer to every word in the bible.

It is also not Christ, and Christ is the One God told us to listen TO.

Jesus in a prayer said to his Father, “Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.� John 17:17.
And who is the Truth?

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

And who is the Word of God?

(John 1:1-2, 14)


And is it not Christ who sanctifies us?

And that is why [Jesus] suffered outside the city gate, to sanctify the people by His own blood. Hebrews 2:11

Is it not Christ who grants us forgiveness of sins? Are we not made clean in Christ?
Jesus is not the highest being in the universe and anyone that denies that is not part of Jehovah' congregation. Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I am." John 14:28.
I cannot use the name "Jehovah" because it is not true, but JAH is true, so I will use that name.

I certainly do not deny what my Lord said about Himself and His Father.

Jesus appeared to Paul. Acts 9:6 says that Jesus told Paul what to do, “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.� There is no indication that Jesus ever stopped.
Paul himself states that some things he reasoned on his own, not having a command from the Lord to follow. And Paul is not Christ; He is not inerrant; you KNOW men can make mistakes (including your own leaders in your religion). So if someone says something that is against what Christ taught - do not listen to them or it. (this is why Paul wrote a third letter to the Corinthians, telling them to embrace the man he formerly told them to shun, and even saying he commanded that just to test them - not because it was a command from the Lord. He never said that it was a command from the Lord).

This means that disfellowshipping was not Paul's idea. For Paul only follows Jesus' leadership. That means what He wrote was at Jesus' request.
Nope. Paul said that some things were from him, not the Lord. Some things were according to his reasoning.
All the Bible writers are writing at Jesus' request. Revelation 1:1 tells us a clue how the Bible writers got their information. "Jesus Christ, which God gave him...And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John."


That applies to the book of revelation and the book of revelation ONLY.

If you interpret something more than that, you are going beyond what is written. Luke did not say that he got his information in that way. Luke in fact said that he investigated, interviewed, wrote down what others said. The disciple Christ loved wrote down what he witnessed first hand (from the book attributed to John).
Anyone that rejects that teaching, I reject their teaching.


You are teaching that those words apply to more than just the book that John wrote (revelation). But that is not even what is written.
Anyone that rejects a single verse in the Bible, in my view, are not part of God's congregation.
See, Paul did this sometimes as well. Gave 'his' view. But that did not mean that it was the Lord's view.


I can tell you that don't recall Christ EVER stating such a thing (that was not even yet written and that was not the scriptures that Christ referred to... or even the scriptures that Paul referred to in his letter to Timothy).

So who exactly are you listening to when you present this idea? Or is it just an arbitrary idea of your own?


You also realize that there are countless people who consider the bible to be inerrant and all inspired, and most of them come to different conclusions, right? Worse than that, many of them claim these things about the bible, and then they turn around and disobey Christ... (mis)using something in the bible to justify their disobedience to Christ. They are obeying something in the bible (or obeying men who claim their teaching is backed up in the bible), but at the EXPENSE of Christ's words and commands. The very person God told us to listen TO. The very person who IS the TRUTH, the LIGHT, the WAY, the IMAGE and WORD of God.


If Christ and HIS words came first, then you would know that He is speaking to ANYONE who thirsts and anyone who seeks and anyone who is weary. That He is calling to anyone to come to HIM (including you).

As it is, men misuse the bible and teach tens of millions of people to do the opposite of what Christ said to do; teaching tens of millions of people that Christ was not talking to them and is not inviting them to be part of the new covenant. And tens of millions of people don't recognize that this is in conflict with Christ... because they are not looking to HIM to know the truth.


HE is the gate through whom we must enter to have life.



May anyone who wishes them be granted ears to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say, "Come!" May all who thirst and seek, "Come! Take the gift of the water of life FREE!"


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #36

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to post 35 by tam]

I seen all I need to see here. Thanks for your input. Time for me to move on. I do not waste time on those that think the Bible is not the word of God. I will be putting you on my ignore list. I don't waste time on those that think that any Bible writer wrote things 'were according to his reasoning.' No wonder you don't agree with disfellowshipping. You pick things in the Bible you want to follow and ignore what you don't want to. Just like all the other religions. If the Bible doesn't agree with what the leadership wants, they reject it. You think your different, but you're not. You're just like them. Your fight is not with me or any JW. Your fight is with the Bible....a fight that you will lose. I wish you'd see that, but sadly it's going to take you witnessing the end of this system of things for you to maybe come around. I will leave us to Jesus for our judgement.

"But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." Acts 5:39.

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Post #37

Post by Wootah »

2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 35 by tam]

I seen all I need to see here. Thanks for your input. Time for me to move on. I do not waste time on those that think the Bible is not the word of God. I will be putting you on my ignore list. I don't waste time on those that think that any Bible writer wrote things 'were according to his reasoning.' No wonder you don't agree with disfellowshipping. You pick things in the Bible you want to follow and ignore what you don't want to. Just like all the other religions. If the Bible doesn't agree with what the leadership wants, they reject it. You think your different, but you're not. You're just like them. Your fight is not with me or any JW. Your fight is with the Bible....a fight that you will lose. I wish you'd see that, but sadly it's going to take you witnessing the end of this system of things for you to maybe come around. I will leave us to Jesus for our judgement.

"But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." Acts 5:39.
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