Moral Question for Christians

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rikuoamero
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Moral Question for Christians

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Post by rikuoamero »

On a moral level, this is perhaps the one question that stops me from becoming a Christian again.
On this site, I've been told over and over that Jesus Christ died for us, he died for our sins, that he was the sacrifice for our sins, that he paid the penalty etc etc. That to receive salvation/justification, I have to have faith in/believe in this.

So I'd like to ask the Christians on this site this.
Let's imagine you've gone back in time (no need to discuss how for this question) to the day of Jesus's crucifixion.
Would you prevent the crucifixion? Or even what I would call worse...would you actively take part in it yourself? Would you quite literally nail him to the cross yourself?


That is the reason why I cannot be a Christian. When Christianity praises this event as what saves humanity, I am essentially being told to rejoice at the fact that a (according to Christians) innocent human, one who had done no wrong, was arrested on trumped up charges and executed.
I cannot rejoice at someone's death. Most especially if I would not kill the person myself, if given the opportunity. If I am to be glad that a serial killer has been executed for example, I cannot then say I wouldn't be able to turn on the electrical chair.

If a Christian does happen to say that yes, they would nail Jesus to the cross...then congratulations. You have the courage of your convictions.
You are also another example of what I find so despicable about the religion, in that you are willing to actively murder someone whom you think is innocent for a vague "greater good" that can't be easily explained or understood.
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #2

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

We all nailed Jesus to the cross - it's our sins that put him there.

I think your issue is one of self perception. In Rwanda if you were a Hutu you would be chopping up Tutsis. In Australia if you were a settler you would have pushed aborigines off your land. If you were a Mongol you would have been in the horde. If you were a viking you would have been raiding other lands. If you were ... take your pick.

Of course if you were a Jew who had followed this crazy guy and believed abd then were watching him die of course you would have jeered.

Until you know thyself it is hard to change. It is also hard to see God clearly either.

Edit: just consider the odds. What are the odds you would have been the one to not be a nazi or a communist.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #3

Post by Divine Insight »

Wootah wrote: We all nailed Jesus to the cross - it's our sins that put him there.
You can only be responsible for having nailed Jesus to the cross if you condone and embrace this action as serving as your penal substitution. If you reject this immoral act and brave your own death instead, then you have refused to be any party to the crucifixion of Jesus.

So only by accepting this act on your behalf have you nailed Jesus to the cross.

Those of us who refuse to condone it have no responsibility for it.
Wootah wrote: I think your issue is one of self perception. In Rwanda if you were a Hutu you would be chopping up Tutsis. In Australia if you were a settler you would have pushed aborigines off your land. If you were a Mongol you would have been in the horde. If you were a viking you would have been raiding other lands. If you were ... take your pick.
So in other words, you are saying that being a Christian amounts to nothing more than blindly going along with the masses?
Wootah wrote: Of course if you were a Jew who had followed this crazy guy and believed abd then were watching him die of course you would have jeered.
Did those disciples condone having Jesus crucified to pay for their sins? Were they even asked? If the only reason they failed to do something was due to cowardice on their own behalf, that's hardly honorable.
Wootah wrote: Until you know thyself it is hard to change. It is also hard to see God clearly either.

Edit: just consider the odds. What are the odds you would have been the one to not be a nazi or a communist.
Well, considering that I have disagreed with many of the commonly accepted traditions, laws, and religion of the society I currently live in, I think it's fair to say that I probably wouldn't have gone along with other societies that I disagreed with as well.

The idea that all humans just blindly follow the masses is a pretty feeble apology for an immoral religion don't you think? :-k
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #4

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

It's definitely about self perception.

Its also an open question who is going along blindly with the masses. Most people do not self identify with the bad guys. Isnt the larger blindness on your side?
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #5

Post by tam »

Peace to you Rik!
rikuoamero wrote: On a moral level, this is perhaps the one question that stops me from becoming a Christian again.
On this site, I've been told over and over that Jesus Christ died for us, he died for our sins, that he was the sacrifice for our sins, that he paid the penalty etc etc. That to receive salvation/justification, I have to have faith in/believe in this.

So I'd like to ask the Christians on this site this.
Okay, but may I please state that my understanding is not that one merely believe that Christ died for us... but that one believe in HIM. To believe in the One God sent. Obviously that includes what He did and what He teaches (else how can one say that one truly believes in Him?). Part of that is that He gave His life (died for us); that we have forgiveness of sins in Him, and also that He was raised from the dead and is ALIVE.


Moving on to your questions:
Let's imagine you've gone back in time (no need to discuss how for this question) to the day of Jesus's crucifixion.
Ok.

Would you prevent the crucifixion?


No.

Who in the world am I to think that I know better than my Lord or my God?

My Lord HIMSELF did not prevent the crucifixion and He could have done so. He said it Himself,

"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" Matthew 26:53


Twice Peter attempted to prevent this from happening. And each time my Lord rebuked Him for this.

Once with words:

From that time on [Jesus] began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord! he said. “This shall never happen to You!�

But [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.�



And once by drawing his sword and attacking those who came to arrest my Lord:

“Put your sword back in its place,� [Jesus] said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?�


So no, I would not try to prevent it. He is my Lord, not the other way around. He and His Father know what is needed and neither need my permission to do what is needed.


I would exercise faith in them.

Or even what I would call worse...would you actively take part in it yourself? Would you quite literally nail him to the cross yourself?

Of course not.


Being grateful to a soldier who jumped on a grenade in order to save your life is not the same as throwing the grenade at Him, yourself.


Christ warned His apostles that these things were going to be done to Him. He never told THEM (or anyone) that they SHOULD do those things to Him (or anyone else for that matter).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #6

Post by Divine Insight »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

It's definitely about self perception.

Its also an open question who is going along blindly with the masses. Most people do not self identify with the bad guys. Isnt the larger blindness on your side?
A Christian who refuses to acknowledge that they are a 'bad guy' could hardly ask for forgiveness in any sincere way. What would they ask for forgiveness for? Not being perfect? If they aren't perfect who's fault is that? And would they deserve to be brutally crucified for merely not being perfect? :-k

This is a huge problem with this religion. In order to defend this paradigm we must embrace the idea that it makes sense to brutally crucify people and cast them into hell for merely not being perfect. :roll:

Can anyone truly argue that this makes any sense?

Also, if humans aren't prefect, and especially if no human is perfect, who could possibly be responsible for that other than the entity that created imperfect humans in the first place and then demanded that they must be perfect.

No matter how much we try to salvage this ancient paradigm it continually destroys itself by ending up demanding utterly absurd conclusions.

If no human is perfect, and perfection is that only thing this God can accept, then shame on this creator for creating billions upon billions of imperfect humans.

Any creator who would continually do that without stopping to think that the problem might be due to his own ineptitude as a creator, would already be problematic.
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Can God create a perfect being?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #8

Post by rikuoamero »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

It's definitely about self perception.

Its also an open question who is going along blindly with the masses. Most people do not self identify with the bad guys. Isnt the larger blindness on your side?
Wootah, which of the two of us here identifies as being a part of literally the largest and most popular religion of all time?
In my case, when I stopped believing (at about age 12 or 13), I didn't even know the words atheist or agnostic.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #9

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 2 by Wootah]
We all nailed Jesus to the cross - it's our sins that put him there.
Nope. You didn't and I din't do that. What happened, happened two thousand years ago. What you say here makes as much as sense as blaming yourself for the conquest of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar.
In Rwanda if you were a Hutu you would be chopping up Tutsis. In Australia if you were a settler you would have pushed aborigines off your land. If you were a Mongol you would have been in the horde. If you were a viking you would have been raiding other lands. If you were ... take your pick.
Perhaps. You're essentially arguing that one becomes what the society they are born into, demands of them.
What you say here completely ignores is individual choice. I don't know about your situation (I don't know when it is you became a Christian, whether or not you yourself were born into it or became one later on in life) but my own situation is that I was born Christian and then dropped it later on.
Of course if you were a Jew who had followed this crazy guy and believed abd then were watching him die of course you would have jeered.
Of course, if you're a Christian, then you believe that this execution is somehow necessary and wouldn't intervene...
What are the odds you would have been the one to not be a nazi or a communist.
Who says I wasn't? I once thought communism a good idea, until I learned that it's only good on paper.
As for Nazism, I've never and will never embrace that ideology.

Anyway, this thread isn't a critique of myself. It's a critique of Christianity, one where (from what I can see) it demands that an innocent man be executed and that its adherents react with joy at the thought of that, and that in a hypothetical situation they would have to nail him to the cross themselves.
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #10

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 5 by tam]
Part of that is that He gave His life (died for us); that we have forgiveness of sins in Him, and also that He was raised from the dead and is ALIVE.
The problem I have with Christianity (to use the term as broadly as possible) tam, and please do not reply back saying this isn't what your lord teaches... is that this "forgiveness of sins" apparently cannot and would not happen unless he, the innocent man, gets tortured and executed in one of the most brutal ways imaginable.
If you are unwilling to do this yourself, then I don't see how you in any way deserve to have the benefit of this "forgiveness of sins".
So I ask you tam...if you had gone back in time, would you nail Jesus to the cross yourself? Would you be able to, be willing to, hammer the nails through his hands/wrists?
If you're unable/unwilling to do that, then you have no business receiving the benefits of it (assuming for the sake of argument that this forgiveness of sins really does happen).
Who in the world am I to think that I know better than my Lord or my God?
It's a matter of lining up morals and ethics, and not simply following along like a good little soldier.
You are a thinking human, a person with a brain, a mind, one who can understand things.
DO NOT ever switch off those parts simply because someone says they are God or are speaking for God. That is how I'd imagine a devil would operate; a devil would want adherents to follow what he says simply because he cites authority, and not because he makes a good argument.
My Lord HIMSELF did not prevent the crucifixion and He could have done so. He said it Himself,
Just because someone is willing to go through suicide by cop and has every opportunity (even to the point of calling in angels) to save himself doesn't mean that you or I have to go along with it, or accept it as being moral or ethical.
Twice Peter attempted to prevent this from happening. And each time my Lord rebuked Him for this.
But [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me.
So according to Christianity, stopping someone from committing suicide makes one a Satan.
This is part of the problem I'm highlighting in my OP, tam. That Christianity has so tainted one's thinking that you are afraid of questioning it, even to the point of it making you embrace suicide by cop.
So no, I would not try to prevent it.
Tam, do me a favour and expand this sentence. I want you to put down in text, what "it" is.

I will say it for myself.

I, rikuoamero, would try to prevent the torture and execution of an innocent man.
I, rikuoamero, would not accept the benefits (if any) that comes with the torture and execution of an innocent man unless I was willing to perform the torture and execution myself.

Can you say say the same sentences, substituting your name for mine?
He and His Father know what is needed and neither need my permission to do what is needed.
Then from my position, Christianity has so destroyed your moral compass that it looks like you don't have one. You are embracing torture and execution of innocent men.
I'm not talking about permission, tam. I'm talking about Christianity making one so selfish that they can feel no qualms, no problems, with the thoughts of receiving some sort of benefit when an innocent man got tortured and executed.
If this happened today, if I got a cheque in the post when an innocent man got tortured and executed today...I'd send the cheque right back to his family at the very least. I wouldn't cash it. Before I could accept that cheque, I'd have to ask myself would I be willing and able to perform the torture and execution myself?
Of course not.


Being grateful to a soldier who jumped on a grenade in order to save your life is not the same as throwing the grenade at Him, yourself.
I really don't see how one can liken Christianity's teachings to jumping on a grenade. Christianity says Jesus gets tortured and executed so as to pay some sort of cosmic penalty for what Adam and Eve did.
A grenade situation is one where a grenade is tossed, often with the victims being unaware of it, and there is only the barest of moments to react and do something about it, before it explodes and kills everyone in the vicinity.
Nothing at all like the situation according to Christianity. Are you saying that what Jesus Christ did was a mad gamble on his part, a knee-jerk sacrifice to save everyone at the cost of his own, even when he could have teleported the grenade away so that it didn't harm anybody?
Christ warned His apostles that these things were going to be done to Him. He never told THEM (or anyone) that they SHOULD do those things to Him (or anyone else for that matter).
And being the good little apostles that they were, they allowed what happened to happen, apart from Peter who stopped when his master called him names.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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