Moral Question for Christians

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rikuoamero
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Moral Question for Christians

Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

On a moral level, this is perhaps the one question that stops me from becoming a Christian again.
On this site, I've been told over and over that Jesus Christ died for us, he died for our sins, that he was the sacrifice for our sins, that he paid the penalty etc etc. That to receive salvation/justification, I have to have faith in/believe in this.

So I'd like to ask the Christians on this site this.
Let's imagine you've gone back in time (no need to discuss how for this question) to the day of Jesus's crucifixion.
Would you prevent the crucifixion? Or even what I would call worse...would you actively take part in it yourself? Would you quite literally nail him to the cross yourself?


That is the reason why I cannot be a Christian. When Christianity praises this event as what saves humanity, I am essentially being told to rejoice at the fact that a (according to Christians) innocent human, one who had done no wrong, was arrested on trumped up charges and executed.
I cannot rejoice at someone's death. Most especially if I would not kill the person myself, if given the opportunity. If I am to be glad that a serial killer has been executed for example, I cannot then say I wouldn't be able to turn on the electrical chair.

If a Christian does happen to say that yes, they would nail Jesus to the cross...then congratulations. You have the courage of your convictions.
You are also another example of what I find so despicable about the religion, in that you are willing to actively murder someone whom you think is innocent for a vague "greater good" that can't be easily explained or understood.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #21

Post by tam »

Peace to you DI,
Divine Insight wrote:
tam wrote: So I really have no comment on the rest of what you wrote, because what you wrote really doesn't respond to or even take into consideration what I wrote.
Exactly.

But what I wrote does indeed take into account what is written in the Christian Gospels So you'll have to excuse me if I'm more interested in discussing what Christianity has to say over what Tam has to say.
Then why comment or question what "Tam" had to say in the first place?


Why should I care what Tam has to say when she refuses to acknowledge what is stated in the Christian Gospels? I'm not interested in debating what Tam wishes Christianity could have been had she been given the opportunity to write the Gospels.


A - I have not refused to acknowledge what is written in the gospels. The understanding I have received (that I have shared with support from what is written) is simply different than the interpretation you present.

B - Again, if you did not care what 'tam' had to say, then why ask 'tam' questions to begin with? This thread poses a moral question for Christians. Not for "Christianity" (among which are many different sects and interpretations, ONE of which would be your own).






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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rikuoamero
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Post #22

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 19 by Overcomer]
If you're offended by the cross, think how offended God is by your sin. The only way you can end your offense to him is accept that cross.
This is another reason why I dislike Christianity. It (and you) calls me a sinner and then says that to stop being a sinner is to believe a claim that has been made.
And how offensive is it to Christ that you reject what he did for you?
What has Christ done for me? He lived and died 2,000 years before I was born. Either way, I am not willing to accept what you think he did for me unless I'm willing to be a participant in his execution, which I will not be.
It's like he pulled you out of the Atlantic Ocean
No, it's not. At no point according to Christianity is this anything at all like saving one from a disaster.
The entire issue of Jesus "having" to die on a cross is to resolve some sort of divine/cosmic legal issue. I don't ignore that when it comes to my moralistic evaluation of Christianity.
and you're shoving him aside, spitting in his face, telling him he's an idiot for saving you and you don't need him or what he offers you -- your very life.
Read the quote in my signature, the one I got from Joey. Instead of Jesus talking to me directly (like tam says he does to her), I get Christians telling me about him.
How can I be spitting in Jesus's face, even metaphorically, if he doesn't even talk to me directly?
Besides, look at what you said I had to do. You said I had to accept the cross. You gave me no reason why that's a good idea, or anything at all truthful. Just that I should.
I have no reason to "accept", for starters being that I don't actually believe it. Belief comes before acceptance (in other words, believe that it actually happened, then accept on a moral level). My understanding of this is...is that this Christian talking to me wants me to violate my intellectual and moral integrity.
I will not do that.

As for looking at things from God's POV...no. Not when the same religion says that God is a mystery.
Besides, I do have a problem with Christianity and Christians, not your God. I'm not a misotheist. I'm an atheist. I'd be a misotheist if I actually believed your God existed, which I don't.

Here's a line from the article you linked

The offense is that the magnitude of God’s solution — the slaughter of his own Son — shows the magnitude of our wickedness and frailty and utter inability.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true...then to echo Divine Insight...then we (to think collectively and not as an individual) don't deserve this "gift". Apparently we're all wicked, and frail and have utter inability.
If this is true, then we should not receive any "reward" from this. To reward us for being wicked is the very antithesis of justice.

Now back to thinking as an individual. I, as in me, rikuoamero, did not have a hand in the crucifixion event. That was 2,000 years ago. Before I was born. So why am I being lumped in with the crucifiers?

The message of Christ crucified says you’re an absolute failure in relation to what’s most important. The horror of killing the Son of God points to the horror of our condition.
What if, Overcomer, I refuse to take part in the crucifixion? To have NO PART in the killing of the Son of God?
Hmm...wouldn't that paint me as not an absolute failure?

So Overcomer...how is it I am bad and horrible and evil and sinful...for not doing anything bad and horrible and evil and sinful, for outright rejecting what is perhaps the worst action imaginable, that of participating in torture and execution?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #23

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

I, for one, do not see any necessity to "celebrate" the crucifixion of Jesus. The real victory is that he has been won over death!

I would rather want Jesus as the Leader to the Promised Land.

Besides, "raising 5 kings" by the sacrifice of Jesus may very well be 5 foul and morally depraved kings.

To prevent Jesus from being crucified, I would leap at Pontius Pilate with a sword or knife and kill him!

One should remember that Jesus urged us in his own words to "keep the commandments" (to the young, rich man) and that it is not possible to any mind of wickedness to the crucifixion of Jesus or against Jesus as such to any extent. That no evil enters Heaven.
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Aetixintro wrote: To prevent Jesus from being crucified, I would leap at Pontius Pilate with a sword or knife and kill him!
Didn't Peter try and prevent Jesus arrest with a sword?
MATTHEW 26:52

But Jesus told him, "Put your sword away. Anyone who lives by fighting will die by fighting. - Contemporary English Version
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #25

Post by bjs »

If I understand the belief and the documents correctly, it is not simply that Jesus was innocent but also that he was willing. If the Gospels are correct then Jesus knew that he was going to be arrested and crucified. He had many, many opportunities to prevent it from happening. He could at any point have turned to a different path and led a different life that did not include crucifixion (read Kazantzakis’s The Last Temptation of Christ. But don’t watch the movie; just read the book). Jesus treated his death as part of a greater plan that he considered to be worth the cost.

I suppose if I were there I would probably try to protect an innocent man, for all the good I could do. Unless I suddenly transformed into the Terminator I would have little hope of stopping the execution. Even if had that kind of power, then (assuming the Gospels are true) it still seems that the Omnipotent would have brought about His plan regardless of my interference.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #26

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 25 by bjs]
it still seems that the Omnipotent would have brought about His plan regardless of my interference.
And yet, this Omnipotent being somehow just HAD to go through with a torture/execution/suicide by cop kind of plan, in order to achieve something he could have done with a wave of his hand? What could possibly interfere with an omnipotent entity's plans? You? Adam? Eve? Satan?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #27

Post by puddleglum »

[Replying to post 26 by rikuoamero]
And yet, this Omnipotent being somehow just HAD to go through with a torture/execution/suicide by cop kind of plan, in order to achieve something he could have done with a wave of his hand?
If God simply forgave our sins without requiring a blood sacrifice he would be condoning our sins and thus share our guilt. His nature won't allow him to do that. I'm not sure just how that works, but I am only a finite human so I don't have the ability to understand an infinite God. If he says something is true I must accept it. Someday, after we leave this life, we will have a lot of the answers we aren't able to comprehend now.

Regarding the questions you asked in the OP, I would not try to stop the crucifixion because my salvation depends on it, but I would not help to carry it out because those who did crucify him were committing a horrible sin. Each of us must choose whether to obey God but regardless of what we choose he will use our choices to further his work. God will even use your attacks on the truth to bring glory to him.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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Post #28

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 27 by puddleglum]
If God simply forgave our sins without requiring a blood sacrifice he would be condoning our sins and thus share our guilt.
I have forgiven the actions of others without requiring blood sacrifices or condoning what it is they have done.
For example...I have forgiven my elder sister for bullying me in our childhood. I do not and will never condone what she did, but I forgave her for it, and she did not have to give me restitution of any kind.
Funny how you make your god out to be completely incapable of what it is I, a mere mortal, am able to do.
His nature won't allow him to do that. I'm not sure just how that works, but I am only a finite human so I don't have the ability to understand an infinite God.
By disqualifying yourself from understanding God, anything you say about his nature can and ought to be ignored. Why should anyone listen to you when you say that his nature won't allow him to do something? You've just admitted you don't know or understand his nature!
Imagine if a student, who admits to not understanding calculus, tried to say what the solution of a calculus equation could or could not be.
If he says something is true I must accept it.
Even though he could be lying or mistaken, or you could be mistaken about it being from God. Do not say to me anything like God wouldn't deceive...he can and has according to your own Bible.
Someday, after we leave this life, we will have a lot of the answers we aren't able to comprehend now.
Another reason why I dislike Christianity. Questions and mysteries are just not attempted, instead to be put off to be revealed or solved in some ethereal next life after this one.
Regarding the questions you asked in the OP, I would not try to stop the crucifixion because my salvation depends on it,
Thus revealing that you are selfish. Why should you be rewarded with salvation or eternal life or whatever it is you want to call it, for not doing anything to stop what you yourself admit is a "horrible sin". In fact, didn't you, at the start of this reply, say just that? Something about condoning sin?
but I would not help to carry it out because those who did crucify him were committing a horrible sin.
Then you don't deserve it anyway. Instead of taking up the hammer yourself, you're having someone else do it, and expecting to be rewarded all the same. You're not willing to dirty your own hands, but are okay with others doing the "sin" and then reaping the benefits yourself.

Face it, Christianity puts you in a moral double bind, regarding the crucifixion. Either you do it yourself, thus revealing yourself to be a savage person, willing to torture and execute someone for your own gain...or you have others do it, and you show yourself to be willing to benefit from the sins of others, of condoning their actions.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #29

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 16 by tam]
But this is what I am hearing from you:

Unless you are willing to murder the person who comes to save your life, you have no business being saved. Unless you are willing to murder the person who gave their life for yours, you have no business living?
I missed this before.

The person who you say is coming to save my life...it is their death that is apparently the means by which my and others' lives are to be saved. Not just a death, but one done by savagery, that is, torture and execution.
What I am saying is that unless you are willing to murder the person yourself, you do not deserve to reap the benefits that you say come from the torture and murder of that person. I am also saying that if you do indeed murder the person yourself, then you have just revealed your savagery, and thus don't deserve it anyway.

The only way out of this moral conundrum, that I can see at the very least, is to NOT condone the torture and execution of what is (from what I hear) an innocent man. To try and save the man, if ever the opportunity arose. To refuse any benefit that arises from the torture and execution of this man.
There have been people on this thread who have said they would not try to save Jesus, tam. So consider that. That person has essentially said that if they went back in time, and were present at the execution, they would do nothing and the reason given? Because they would obtain salvation.
On a moral level, I consider that to be the same as being at a child sacrifice ritual, and doing nothing to stop the child being killed, indeed condoning it because you think there's some sort of benefit you can obtain from the child being killed.
It doesn't matter how often you (plural you) try to put a pretty frame around this tam...I'm still hearing that torture and execution of innocent people are being condoned and for selfish reasons.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #30

Post by puddleglum »

I have forgiven the actions of others without requiring blood sacrifices or condoning what it is they have done.
For example...I have forgiven my elder sister for bullying me in our childhood. I do not and will never condone what she did, but I forgave her for it, and she did not have to give me restitution of any kind.
Funny how you make your god out to be completely incapable of what it is I, a mere mortal, am able to do.
When we forgive others it only means we don't let their sins affect our relationship with them. When God forgives it means they no longer face eternal punishment for their sins.

We have committed sins of our own so we don't have the right to demand any payment from others when we forgive them. God is without sin.
By disqualifying yourself from understanding God, anything you say about his nature can and ought to be ignored. Why should anyone listen to you when you say that his nature won't allow him to do something? You've just admitted you don't know or understand his nature!
Imagine if a student, who admits to not understanding calculus, tried to say what the solution of a calculus equation could or could not be.
When I say I can't understand God I mean that I don't have the ability to figure out anything about him be my own efforts. All I can know is what he has revealed and my limited understanding limits what he is able to reveal to me.
Even though he could be lying or mistaken, or you could be mistaken about it being from God. Do not say to me anything like God wouldn't deceive...he can and has according to your own Bible.

God cannot lie or be mistaken. Where does the Bible say he has ever deceived anyone?
Another reason why I dislike Christianity. Questions and mysteries are just not attempted, instead to be put off to be revealed or solved in some ethereal next life after this one.
All I am doing is recognizing my own limitations. That is something you aren't doing when you try to pass judgment on God and on those who follow him.
Thus revealing that you are selfish. Why should you be rewarded with salvation or eternal life or whatever it is you want to call it, for not doing anything to stop what you yourself admit is a "horrible sin". In fact, didn't you, at the start of this reply, say just that? Something about condoning sin?
Christ's death was God's plan. I don't have any right to interfere with it.
Then you don't deserve it anyway. Instead of taking up the hammer yourself, you're having someone else do it, and expecting to be rewarded all the same. You're not willing to dirty your own hands, but are okay with others doing the "sin" and then reaping the benefits yourself.
No one deserves salvation. It is a gift God gives us because of his love. Instead of criticizing others, you should turn to God and receive this gift for yourself.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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