Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity

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paarsurrey1
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Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity

Post #1

Post by paarsurrey1 »

Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity. Did he?

Jesus was a Jew and followed Moses' teachings. His core teaching was :

Matthew 22 (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?�

37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.�
http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/22.htm

The above is the same as Moses told:

Deuteronomy 6:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... my+6%3A5-7

So the "heart and soul" and essence of Jesus belief and his teaching was to believe in One-True-God whom he used to address in love or poetic way as God-the-Father, and to worship no other god.

This is Jesus' overwhelming teaching and all other creeds must be within it and in no way the slightest repugnant to it. If a creed is against it then one is not following the way Jesus was following nor heading to the light Jesus followed.
Right,please?

Regards

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Re: Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trini

Post #21

Post by steveb1 »

[Replying to post 1 by paarsurrey1]

The Trinity doctrine was formulated by non-Jews centuries after Jesus's death, so Jesus could not have believed in the Trinity.

"High christology" probably began in the mind of Jesus, but it did not consist in a claim to "be God".

Even in John's high christology, Jesus never claims to be God. In fact, he excludes himself from the Godhead in John 17:3. He also tells Mary that he himself has a God: "I ascend to your God and my God".
Moreover, Jesus denies any Godhood to himself because he consistently says that all his power and authority are derived from the Father and that "I can do nothing of myself", but "onlyby the will of the Father". In the NT, therefore, Jesus is not God and not the Trinitarian Son/Second Person. But he does claim - in all the Gospels - to be more than a mere mortal.

John's Jesus is both the Nazarene carpenter-sage, and the embodiment of the Logos, which for John makes Jesus God's "Son". Not in an ontological Trinitarian sense, but rather as an ancient, primordial, archangelic figure, at God's side in a heavenly preexistence, and through whom "all was made". Remarkably, the Synoptic Gospels to a greater or lesser extent, tend to echo major attributes of this high christology.

In the Synoptics, when Jesus is on trial before the Sanhedrin, he identifies himself with the heavenly Son of Man from the book of Daniel - a preexistent figure, living in the clouds of heaven, present to Yahweh, the Ancient of Days, in the heavenly court. Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that they themselves will see this celestial Son of Man coming in the clouds, gloriously, accompanied by "Power" (God's living Presence). In other places, Jesus says that the Son of Man is charged with execution of divine judgment which will come on "the last day".

The priest cries "blasphemy" and tears his robes when he hears Jesus's expression of high christology. Not because Jesus is claiming to "be God", but rather because Jesus - a mere man - is claiming to be "a Second Power in heaven", who was also associated with Yahweh's chief assisting angel, the Great Angel of ancient Israel, who bore the divine name and executed divine judgment.
The priest saw in Jesus's claim a lying attempt to identify himself with the Great Angel and with the sacred Son of Man. Hence the charge of blasphemy: Jesus in fact (so thought the Sanhedrin) was no more the Son of Man or the Great Angel than he was the true Messiah. His crucifixion was consequent to the Sanhedrin's condemnation of Jesus's claim to be the preexistent heavenly figure.

Some of the earliest Jewish christologies held that a great angel, or the heavenly Christ, or the Adam Kadmon, or the Son of Man, had descended upon and dwelled in Jesus at least from the time of his baptism by John. Which meant that Jesus was God's Son in a high christological sense that expanded beyond mere Adoptionist christology. Jesus carried in himself the spirit of the Preexistent One.

This primordial "Power" was transformed into the Trinity's Second Person centuries after Jesus's death, the error being that the Church Councils mistook the Jewish/monotheistic Son of Man to be "God" - but, knowing that "God" always meant the Father-Creator in heaven while Jesus was only the Son on earth - the Councils elevated Jesus into full Godhood, turning the Son of Man into God the Son.

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Post #22

Post by DPMartin »

paarsurrey1 wrote:
Wootah wrote: You aren't demonstrating how there is a conflict between the one true God and the trinity.
It is not required as Moses and other prophets/messengers did not believe in any trinity. Trinity is made-in-Rome by Pauline-Christianity, imported from other people.

Regards

your wrong there

there is Abraham the father Isaac the beloved son who was offered and Jacob who's name was changed by God to Israel of which starting with twelve all are the children of.

there's God the Father of which the Son said He had in Heaven of which John the Baptist witnessed God say Jesus was His Beloved Son and the Holy Spirit of which was witnessed again by John the Baptist as a dove and of which Jesus said was to be a comforter to the disciples and one needs to be born of. which makes those born of the Holy Spirit children of God through the Son in the Holy Spirit which so happened to start with twelve.

also in the beginning God created, then His Spirit moved on the face of the waters or hovered, and said hence His Word of which all is created through.

God, His Spirit and His Word. all three are one. and yes guys like Moses knew this. he is the one who documented it for you to read.

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Post #23

Post by puddleglum »

When the wise men came to see Jesus they worshipped him. They knew that the King of the Jews would be God incarnated in human form. It is quite possilbe that the Jews knew that God was a trinity. They rejected Jesus as their Messiah and this rejection affected their ability to understand the scriptures.

The Bible says, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." But the word for God is Elohim, which is plural. The three persons of the Trinity can be one God in the same sense that a man and woman who are married can be one flesh.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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Re: Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trini

Post #24

Post by steveb1 »

paarsurrey1 wrote: Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trinity. Did he?

Jesus was a Jew and followed Moses' teachings. His core teaching was :

Matthew 22 (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?�

37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.�
http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/22.htm

The above is the same as Moses told:

Deuteronomy 6:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... my+6%3A5-7

So the "heart and soul" and essence of Jesus belief and his teaching was to believe in One-True-God whom he used to address in love or poetic way as God-the-Father, and to worship no other god.

This is Jesus' overwhelming teaching and all other creeds must be within it and in no way the slightest repugnant to it. If a creed is against it then one is not following the way Jesus was following nor heading to the light Jesus followed.
Right,please?

Regards
As a monotheistic Jew, Jesus had no concept of a Trinity, and in John's Gospel (John 17:3) he explicitly excluded himself from the Godhead, saying, "You [heavenly Father] are the only true God". Elsewhere in John Jesus says that he is a man who has heard God's word and obeys it - at most a claim to an ardent, faithful kind of Sonship, but not to ontological deity.

Not that Jesus considered himself an ordinary mortal. His confession before the Sanhedrin proves that. In this scene, Jesus identifies himself with a pre-existent heavenly figure called "the Son of Man" - one who gloriously comes in the clouds, accompanied by "Power" - the very Presence of God. The Gospels portray Jesus as Son of Man being able to forgive sin, and being charged with a crucial role in the final judgment.

Clearly the priests were correct in charging Jesus with a kind of secondary blasphemy because, while he neither cursed God or claimed to be God, Jesus still abrogated to himself the superhuman prerogatives, knowledge, and power of a hitherto only celestial companion of God. That was blasphemy enough for the Sanhedrin, and understandably so.

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Trinity Imagined By Allah.

Post #25

Post by Falling Light 101 »

I have noticed that The Quran does indeed declare that any ideas, theories, conceptions or notions of " any " Trinity existing concerning god, are all wholly completely false, error and truly evil and those who adhere to this faith - are deserving condemnation and punishment from god.

This can not be denied, when we read the Quran this message is crystal clear.

However, the only hint or even mentioning whatsoever at all concerning The Trinity Doctrine in Islam - is a description concerning - Mary, Allah, and Yahoshua, and it calls these three as "Allah, Allah's wife Mary and their conceived son Yahoshua "

This is the only focus of the " Trinity " and only single description of the Trinity as an explanation or description - in the Quran.

Although the Holy Spirit - is mentioned in the Quran - but it is only mentioned in the context of - giving revelation and Holy Books, giving signs and strength - also the breath of life and in the Quran The Holy Spirit is also breathing into Mary’s womb to conceive Yahoshua. The Quran condemns and - decries and warns against the Christians who believe that these three are considered “ the three “ as partners or calls on the title or phrase of - “ THE THREE “ to say that Christians falsely believe in - “ The Three “ as - = Allah, Mary and their conceived son Yahoshua.

This is the only condemnation and objection to any form or elusion or insinuation or any hint of any Trinity believe in existence - in The Quran. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in the context of " The Three " that Christians have attributed as partners with Allah.

If we take The Quran upon the intended message and upon the word of what it literally says and explains concerning what Allah and Mohammad are saying, that Christians believe that Mary and Allah are a part of the Trinity Doctrine.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah ) said: - Mary is mentioned alongside the Messiah, because some Christians took her as another god and worshipped her as they worshipped the Messiah. As for those who do not believe in that, they still ask of her what should be asked of God, to the extent that they say to her: Forgive me, have mercy on me, and so on, based on a belief that she will intercede with her son concerning that.

Sometimes they say: O mother of God, intercede for us with God. And sometimes they ask her for their needs, which should be sought from God, and they do not mention intercession. Others worship her as they worshipped the Messiah. - Al-Jawaab as-Saheeh (4/255-256).

The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in The Quran as a part of “ the three / { trinity } “ but the Quran makes its stand against The Trinity, only by the reasoning - of stating “ that God cannot have a son since he has no wife “

Sura. 72:3 - The truth is that - exalted be the Majesty of our Lord - HE has taken unto Himself neither wife nor son.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn - Disbelievers say, 'God is the third of three', gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, are - [those] who are fixed upon unbelief, shall suffer a painful chastisement, namely, the Fire.

The entire concept of The Trinity Doctrine involving The Father, Son and Spirit are completely absent and nonexistent in the Quran -

I, myself, personally - for me - I do not believe that The Father, Son, and Spirit are Three Separate, Individual, Distinct Persons - and I have found that The Trinitarians have altered, changed, added to and removed words from the Original Manuscripts in creating their Trinitarian Translations. - - I simply truly believe what the Original Manuscripts say - that these three are One. And not mentioned or described - as Three Persons.

As it explains in - Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. - :5 For think or regard this in / You / yourselves who { You whom also exist } or ( to ) - You who are - also in Christ Jesus.

6 Who, existed in the form / morph of God, thought it not robbery or seizing, taking (by force) being or eXisting equally God: - :7 But an ineffective / vain / voided / non-effect reputation Himself, taking or receiving the form / morph of a servant was in the likeness of men: = human nature.

Yahoshua admitted that He was not a CO EQUAl " not a CO ETERNAL " INDIVIDUAL " who was a - SEPARATE DISTINCT PERSON - from the Father. Nor a part of a Trinitarian concept, nor one in unity or agreement with the Father. But He was in the form / morph of God, - eXisting equally God: - :
But also at the same time - here on earth, as a man - God took on the MORPH - ONLY - JUST as a vain / voided / non-effect - reputation of Himself - and - MADE INTO - and taking or receiving - the form / morph of a servant, - He, THE FATHER - was MORPHED into the likeness of a man: / human. - Yahoshua defines the terms in His message - by saying that He does nothing of His own self - saying that I can do nothing whatsoever of my own doing. - I do not have any power of miracles, of my own " I do not have a will of my own - I CANNOT DO anything, whatsoever - OF MY OWN ... Saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works.

He was not a distinct separated part of God, nor of a trinity in a partnership as a second PERSON of a triune CO EQUAL GODHEAD with a head and a tail. The word GODHEAD - = simply does not exist in the Bible. - He was not a separate identity or separate person " separated nor individual PERSON - from the father " His will was not " CO EQUAL " nor the same as " in the same WILL as Gods will. He has no power, no control, no miracles, no knowledge and there is no good, no honor and no REPUTATION in Him. -

Saying - why do you call me " good " ? -- " There is NO ONE good but God alone " - - Every time He spoke of his own will, power, majesty and desire and purpose " I find that He denied the trinity doctrine- Yet at the same time, he and the scriptures declare that He was God Himself - He was from heaven, and He PRE EXISTED / ORIGINATED - in the bosom of the father and EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father to sit in the RIGHT of God until his enemies are a footstool " And the Trinitarian Translation denies and deletes and removes the words that say that He EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father. = replacing the word ( OUT FROM ) the right of the Father - to say He only sits " AT " or " ON " the right hand.

I believe that Trinitarians and Muslims both deny and reject and or and simply have deleted or excluded from where He originated, in their scripture and translations. And that Trinitarians forever and eternally leave him sitting. dweling at or on the right hand of God.

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Re: Jesus believed One-True-God, he did not believe in Trini

Post #26

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 1 by paarsurrey1]

paar, you are absolutely right.

How can people think that Jesus was God when he constantly prayed to God, he said that he was obedient to God, he did and spoke the things God told him to do and speak, and he said to God (the Father) in prayer:

"...YOU [are] the only true God." (John 17:3)


People have to ignore ALOT to hold on to the belief that Jesus is God.

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