25:53 and 55:19,20

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TG123
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25:53 and 55:19,20

Post #1

Post by TG123 »

Assalamu Alaikum,

I was wondering if Muslims could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.

25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.



55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.



*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translator’s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 5&verse=53


Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is “forbidden� (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not “complete�) to be passed? This does not happen anywhere in the world.


Shukran wa Allahma3k.


Just in case people are wondering, I posted the same thread on other religious forums on the internet.

hERICtic
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Re: 25:53 and 55:19,20

Post #2

Post by hERICtic »

[Replying to post 1 by TG123]

Its only a scientific error once Muslims try to claim its a scientific miracle.

From previous debates, Muslims claim it refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline

Muslims state that it would be impossible for Mohammed to know about this, hence why its a miracle.

There are a few problems with this belief.

The verses make no mention at all of pycnocline. There isnt any evidence the author was refering to such an event.

Hundreds of years earlier, Aristotle described pycnocline is much greater detail.

If it is refering to pycnocline, then its a scientific mistake. The "barrier" is transgressed. Debris and sediments to mingle and mix betweent he waters.

Yet there is a much simpler explanation.

It refers to the Jordan river. This river, the barrier lies between the sea of Galillee (fresh water) and the Dead Sea (which is salty).

steps
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Post #3

Post by steps »

Did you mean this phenomenon is not exist?

TG123
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Re: 25:53 and 55:19,20

Post #4

Post by TG123 »

hERICtic wrote: [Replying to post 1 by TG123]

Its only a scientific error once Muslims try to claim its a scientific miracle.

From previous debates, Muslims claim it refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline

Muslims state that it would be impossible for Mohammed to know about this, hence why its a miracle.

There are a few problems with this belief.

The verses make no mention at all of pycnocline. There isnt any evidence the author was refering to such an event.

Hundreds of years earlier, Aristotle described pycnocline is much greater detail.

If it is refering to pycnocline, then its a scientific mistake. The "barrier" is transgressed. Debris and sediments to mingle and mix betweent he waters.
Not only that, but the salt and sweet water also mixes within the barrier.
hERICtic wrote: Yet there is a much simpler explanation.

It refers to the Jordan river. This river, the barrier lies between the sea of Galillee (fresh water) and the Dead Sea (which is salty).
However, the Jordan river is fresh water. When it touches the Dead Sea, the salty and fresh water there does mix to an extent. The verses discussing a complete barrier between salty and sweet waters are still not true.

Also, 55:19 states that the 2 seas meet, side by side. Even this was a reference to the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee, it would also not be true, since they do not meet side by side but have a river between them.

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Post #5

Post by TG123 »

steps wrote: Did you mean this phenomenon is not exist?
Correct. When salty and fresh water meet, there is always some mixing that takes place. There is no such thing as a complete partition or forbidden barrier between 2 bodies of water that meet, which prevents them from mixing. Some mixing always does occur.

The author of the Quran is not God, so there is no way he could have known this.

hERICtic
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Re: 25:53 and 55:19,20

Post #6

Post by hERICtic »

TG123 wrote:
hERICtic wrote: [Replying to post 1 by TG123]

Its only a scientific error once Muslims try to claim its a scientific miracle.

From previous debates, Muslims claim it refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline

Muslims state that it would be impossible for Mohammed to know about this, hence why its a miracle.

There are a few problems with this belief.

The verses make no mention at all of pycnocline. There isnt any evidence the author was refering to such an event.

Hundreds of years earlier, Aristotle described pycnocline is much greater detail.

If it is refering to pycnocline, then its a scientific mistake. The "barrier" is transgressed. Debris and sediments to mingle and mix betweent he waters.
TG123 wrote:Not only that, but the salt and sweet water also mixes within the barrier.
I agree. I've mentioned that in the past but the usual excuse I would receieve is that its mixing bc its the barrier itself. I brought up debris and sediments to show even this barrier is penetrated. But yes, you are correct.


hERICtic wrote: Yet there is a much simpler explanation.

It refers to the Jordan river. This river, the barrier lies between the sea of Galillee (fresh water) and the Dead Sea (which is salty).
TG123 wrote:However, the Jordan river is fresh water. When it touches the Dead Sea, the salty and fresh water there does mix to an extent. The verses discussing a complete barrier between salty and sweet waters are still not true.
I think its poetic license. Yes technically, they still mix. But I think if you break it down, you have the Jordan river, which is seperate from the other two bodies of water.
Tg123 wrote:Also, 55:19 states that the 2 seas meet, side by side. Even this was a reference to the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee, it would also not be true, since they do not meet side by side but have a river between them.
I believe the Jordan river is the best explanation. Of course, if you want a completely inerrrant Quran, then yes...its still incorrect. Although, "side by side" I believe is correct if you ignore the barrier itself. Remove the barrier, they would be side by side. Again, technically. ;)

steps
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Post #7

Post by steps »



The salt water and the sweet water :



of course prophet Mohammad the unlettered man who lived in the desert and never sailed or get on a ship . someone told him about this phenomenon .

I do not care what the translation is saying . because Allah said about the QURAN : it is an Arabic tongue not in English tongue

[193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue. ]

The English language contains [ alphabetical , pronunciation , and expressions ] disability ... but the Arabic language is the most higher tongue in all eras . and no language will reach the strength and charm

The testimony of non-Muslim . an atheist about the language of the Quran


hERICtic
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Post #8

Post by hERICtic »

[Replying to post 7 by steps]

I'm not sure what you are trying to convey.

The Quran only states there is a seperation between salt and fresh water that cannot be breached.

We have no evidence to what exactly the author is refering to.

The examples given my Muslim apologists is that its refering to pycnocline.

If that is the case, its a mistake. The waters do mix.

But again, the verse is quite simplistic and does not give much information. It could be refering to the Jordan river, or where a river meets a sea or a land mass.

Even if it was refering to pycnocline, it was known long before the author of the Quran wrote it.

If you are agreeing with me, I apologize. Again, I'm not sure what you were stating.

steps
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Post #9

Post by steps »

hERICtic wrote: [Replying to post 7 by steps]

I'm not sure what you are trying to convey.

The Quran only states there is a seperation between salt and fresh water that cannot be breached.

We have no evidence to what exactly the author is refering to.

The examples given my Muslim apologists is that its refering to pycnocline.

If that is the case, its a mistake. The waters do mix.

But again, the verse is quite simplistic and does not give much information. It could be refering to the Jordan river, or where a river meets a sea or a land mass.

Even if it was refering to pycnocline, it was known long before the author of the Quran wrote it.

If you are agreeing with me, I apologize. Again, I'm not sure what you were stating.
One of the meaning of The word " مرج " means mixed
وَه�وَ الَّذ�ي مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْن� هَذَا عَذْبٌ ��رَاتٌ وَهَذَا م�لْحٌ أ�جَاجٌ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَه�مَا بَرْزَخًا وَح�جْرًا مَحْج�ورً

According to the Arabic dictionary :
ومَرَجَ الله البحرَيْن� العذْبَ والم�لْحَ: خَلَطَهما حتى التقيا. ال�راء �ي قوله عز وجل: مرج البحرين يلتقيان؛ يقول: أَرْسَلَه�ما ثم يلتقيان� بعد، وقيل: خَلاَّهما ثم جعلهما لا يلتبس ذا بذا، قال: وهو كلام لا يقوله إ�لاَّ أَهل ت�هامَةَ، وأَما النحويون �يقولون أَمْرَجْت�ه وأَمْرَجَ دابَّتَه؛ وقال الزّجَّاج: مَرَجَ خَلَطَ؛ يعني البحرَ الم�لحَ والبحرَ العَذْبَ، ومعنى لا يبغيان أَي لا يبغي الم�لح� على العذب �يختلط. ابن الأَعرابي:المَرْج� الإ�جْرَاء�، ومنه قوله مَرَجَ البَحْرَين� أَي أَجراه�ما؛ قال الأَخ�ش: ويقول قومٌ: أَمْرَجَ البحرين� مثل مَرَجَ البحرين، �َعَلَ وأَ�ْعَلَ، بمعنى

http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D9 ... B1%D8%AC#0

مَرَجَ خَلَطَ؛

copy the word " خَلَطَ " in Google translation means : Mixing

we do not translate the holy Quran literally . because it is impossible to translate the higher language to the lower language

TG123
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Post #10

Post by TG123 »

Salaam Alaikum. I viewed each of the videos.
steps wrote:
Nothing in the video states anything about salty and fresh water not mixing.
steps wrote:
The salt water and the sweet water :
Interesting video, shows fresh water flowing over salt water. Nothing mentioned about a barrier between them that forbids mixing.
steps wrote: of course prophet Mohammad the unlettered man who lived in the desert and never sailed or get on a ship . someone told him about this phenomenon .
Fair enough, I can believe that. Whoever told him about the sea falsely told him there is a barrier between salty and fresh water that meet, which prevents them from mixing.
steps wrote:
I do not care what the translation is saying . because Allah said about the QURAN : it is an Arabic tongue not in English tongue

[193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue. ]

The English language contains [ alphabetical , pronunciation , and expressions ] disability ... but the Arabic language is the most higher tongue in all eras . and no language will reach the strength and charm

The testimony of non-Muslim . an atheist about the language of the Quran

The atheist makes several mistakes, one of them stating that women of faith are not mentioned in the Bible.

Can you tell me how these verses are mistranslated? Feel free to post a literal word for word translation. I used corpus-quran for my translation.


25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.



55:19,20


He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.



*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translator’s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 5&verse=53

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