1. Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] [Tafsir Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 204] Who took His slave (Muhammad ) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad ) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.
2. And We gave Musa (Moses) the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel (saying): "Take not other than Me as (your) Wakil (Protector, Lord, or Disposer of your affairs, etc).
3. "O offspring of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh (Noah)! Verily, he was a grateful slave."
4. And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that indeed you would do mischief on the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant!
5. So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in man power.
7. (And We said): "If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands.
8. [And We said in the Taurat (Torah)]: "It may be that your Lord may show mercy unto you, but if you return (to sins), We shall return (to Our Punishment). And We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.
The end of the Jews
Moderator: Moderators
Post #2
What is the point we are debating?
Is it that God can change his mind about the Jews as in these texts?
Is it that God can change his mind about the Jews as in these texts?
Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Exodus 32:10
Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.�
Numbers 14:12
I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.�
Deuteronomy 9:14
Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they.�
Post #3
The plan of Allah is very simple :postroad wrote: What is the point we are debating?
Is it that God can change his mind about the Jews as in these texts?
Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Exodus 32:10
Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.�
Numbers 14:12
I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.�
Deuteronomy 9:14
Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they.�
any nation does not guard , protect , and carry the message of Allah . this nation will be replaced by another nation , and Allah will give this honor and mission to another nation .
read it carefully : Jesus said that : [43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.]
also if the same warning to the Muslims if they turned away , Allah says in Surah 47 verse 38 : [And if you turn away (from Islam and the obedience of Allah), He will exchange you for some other people, and they will not be your likes.]
maybe you did not know before this time the real meaning of the plan of Allah . this means :
the religion is one . the religion of [ Noah , Ibrahim , Moses , Jesus , Mohammad ] is one
My point : we are living the days of the 2nd promise .
Post #4
[Replying to post 3 by steps]
I imagine that at the time God made the first promise, he was unaware of future events?
,
I imagine that at the time God made the first promise, he was unaware of future events?
,
Post #5
No , Allah has absolute knowledge about the future events .
22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah. 23. In order that you may not be sad over matters that you fail to get, nor rejoice because of that which has been given to you. And Allah likes not prideful boasters.
One of the aims of Allah is testing people by people [ the unbelievers by the believers , and the believers by the unbelievers ]
22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah. 23. In order that you may not be sad over matters that you fail to get, nor rejoice because of that which has been given to you. And Allah likes not prideful boasters.
One of the aims of Allah is testing people by people [ the unbelievers by the believers , and the believers by the unbelievers ]
Post #6
Well that makes God's first promise disingenuous and worthless.steps wrote: No , Allah has absolute knowledge about the future events .
22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah. 23. In order that you may not be sad over matters that you fail to get, nor rejoice because of that which has been given to you. And Allah likes not prideful boasters.
One of the aims of Allah is testing people by people [ the unbelievers by the believers , and the believers by the unbelievers ]
Hopefully the second promise is better?
Re: The end of the Jews
Post #7[Replying to post 1 by steps]
SAGE, IT IS SIMPLE ... if you are not for the Jews you will be cursed.
Genesis 12:3 & Psalms 122:6
Also, this is why your quran is so FABRICATED, it continues to call everyone: SLAVES!
You said:
[[1. Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] [Tafsir Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 204] Who took His slave (Muhammad ) ...
3. "O offspring of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh (Noah)! Verily, he was a grateful slave." !
5. So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. ...]]
WHERE DOES OUR GOD FROM THE BIBLE EVER CALL ANY ONE OF US ... SLAVES?
Look at the fabricated quran & even the attributes given to your god are fabricated b/c your god calls everyone ... SLAVES!
Q 38:45 Muhsin Khan
And remember Our slaves, Ibrahim (Abraham), Ishaque (Isaac), and Ya'qub (Jacob), (all) owners of strength (in worshipping Us) and (also) of religious understanding.
Q 38:45, Q 20:77, Q 43:19, Q 19:93, Q 25:1
Even in Islam’s gods attributes does allah reference everyone as “SLAVES�!
Al-Fattaah, Al-Lateef, Al-Wadood, Al-Ba^ith
One of Allah’s attributes is:
Al-Ghaffaar
The Great Forgiver, The Forgiver, The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again.
Al-Fattaah
 The Opener, The Reliever, The Judge, The One who opens for His slaves the closed worldy and religious matters.
Al-Lateef
 The Subtle One, The Gracious, The One who is kind to His slaves and endows upon them.
Al-Wadood
 The Loving, The One who loves His believing slaves and His believing slaves love Him. His love to His slaves is His Will to be merciful to them and praise them:Hence it's meaning is related to the attributes of the Will and Kalam (His attribute with which He orders and forbids and spoke to Muhammad and Musa -peace be upon them- . It is not a sound nor a language nor a letter.).
Al-Ba^ith
 The Reserrector, The Raiser (from death), The One who resurrects His slaves after death for reward and/or punishment.
SAGE, IT IS SIMPLE ... if you are not for the Jews you will be cursed.
Genesis 12:3 & Psalms 122:6
Also, this is why your quran is so FABRICATED, it continues to call everyone: SLAVES!
You said:
[[1. Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] [Tafsir Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 204] Who took His slave (Muhammad ) ...
3. "O offspring of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh (Noah)! Verily, he was a grateful slave." !
5. So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. ...]]
WHERE DOES OUR GOD FROM THE BIBLE EVER CALL ANY ONE OF US ... SLAVES?
Look at the fabricated quran & even the attributes given to your god are fabricated b/c your god calls everyone ... SLAVES!
Q 38:45 Muhsin Khan
And remember Our slaves, Ibrahim (Abraham), Ishaque (Isaac), and Ya'qub (Jacob), (all) owners of strength (in worshipping Us) and (also) of religious understanding.
Q 38:45, Q 20:77, Q 43:19, Q 19:93, Q 25:1
Even in Islam’s gods attributes does allah reference everyone as “SLAVES�!
Al-Fattaah, Al-Lateef, Al-Wadood, Al-Ba^ith
One of Allah’s attributes is:
Al-Ghaffaar
The Great Forgiver, The Forgiver, The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again.
Al-Fattaah
 The Opener, The Reliever, The Judge, The One who opens for His slaves the closed worldy and religious matters.
Al-Lateef
 The Subtle One, The Gracious, The One who is kind to His slaves and endows upon them.
Al-Wadood
 The Loving, The One who loves His believing slaves and His believing slaves love Him. His love to His slaves is His Will to be merciful to them and praise them:Hence it's meaning is related to the attributes of the Will and Kalam (His attribute with which He orders and forbids and spoke to Muhammad and Musa -peace be upon them- . It is not a sound nor a language nor a letter.).
Al-Ba^ith
 The Reserrector, The Raiser (from death), The One who resurrects His slaves after death for reward and/or punishment.
Re: The end of the Jews
Post #8[Replying to post 7 by EDNAR]
Actually Paul indicates that the Jews who choose to stay under the Law are children of the slave woman.
Actually Paul indicates that the Jews who choose to stay under the Law are children of the slave woman.
Galatians 4:21-31
New International Version (NIV)
Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.�]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.� 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Re: The end of the Jews
Post #9[Replying to postroad]
SAGE,
Take heed what is written.
It completely disseminates anything about the legitimacy of Islam.
You quoted Galatians 4:21-35, right? LOOK AGAIN!
Where does Paul put the Jews under Hagar?
We are all under the PROMISE of Isaac & Sarah … not Ishmael & Hagar!
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Btw, SAGE … do you realize that Paul was the prophet of Islam?
Can any muslim use same standard judging Prophet Paul to judging Muh’d?
Unlike Muh’d, Paul had witnesses when he & his road companions met Jesus as a light & a voice.
Yet, muslims, don’t believe PAUL?
Muslims tout Paul as evil, satanic & going against doctrines of Jesus.
Paul NEVER calls Jesus a liar BUT(!) quran does!
Qurans Sura 4:157 refutes words of Jesus!
Islams response? Bibles corrupt!
Quran is w/o PROOF from outside sources. Qurans a circular fallacy.
Teachings of Prophet Paul were confirmed by 4 Prophets/Teachers at Church of Antioch!
Please name 2 Prophets who had confirmed Muh’d teachings (Q 3:81) as confirming the Torah of Moses & Gospel of Yahu'shua?
Who witnessed Muh’d confirming the scriptures B4 him?
Yhwh was mentioned 6,000 x’s in Torah, why not once in quran?
Gal 1:20 states Paul does NOT lie.
Prophet Barnabas, Apostles James, Peter & John are eye-witnesses/teachers ensuring Jesus’ gospel was properly passed to Prophet Paul.
Until muslims can name these prophets who witnessed Muhammad had confirmed the scriptures of the propets B4 him, MUSLIMS still hold the corrupted passport(quran) in their hands & HAVE to accept Jesus as their LORD & Saviour until Q 3:81 is fulfilled!
Q 10:94 states Muh’d NEEDS to go back to the Torah & injeel to find prophets to VALIDATE HIM!
If muslims consistently say the injeel & Torah are corrupted, then Muh’d can NOT be validated by a corrupted “passport�!
Qurans completely [FABRICATED], hence; a BOOK OF LIES.
What sources does it have to PROVE it is true?
Muslims BOAST they memorize the quran; so why memorize mans lies?
Jere 17:5 says GOD curseth the man who trusteth man!
All TRUE prophets relied ON GOD to tell them what to say.
Man is evil & NOT-2B-TRUSTED! Titus 1:15 Not even respected! Rom 2:11
Paul & all TRUE prophets relied on Gods words for truth. See Luke 12:12 & Matt 10:19-20
Surah 36:13-14; 3rd messenger is Paul, True Prophet in Islam
In Arabic, 1st two are John & Simon, the third? PAUL !
Ibn Kathir's tafsir - Surah Yaseen 36:13:
"When We sent to them 2 Messengers, they denied them both…so We reinforced them w/3rd, means, `We supported & strengthened them w/3d Messenger. ' Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba'i, "Names of 1st 2 Messengers were Sham`un & Yuhanna, & 3rd was Bulus,
Sham'un = Simon, Yuhanna = John & Bulus = Paul.
Paul prophesies the CREATION of a NEW Jesus by Islam: Eesa (2 Cor 11:4)
Paul also prophesied of the false prophet: Muhammad who brought a NEW gospel(Islam) via an angel; Gabriel (Gal 1:8-9)
GAL 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 11:4 For if he(Muhammad) that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit(Gabriel=satan), which ye have not received, or another gospel(Islam)
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
SAGE,
Take heed what is written.
It completely disseminates anything about the legitimacy of Islam.
You quoted Galatians 4:21-35, right? LOOK AGAIN!
Where does Paul put the Jews under Hagar?
We are all under the PROMISE of Isaac & Sarah … not Ishmael & Hagar!
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Btw, SAGE … do you realize that Paul was the prophet of Islam?
Can any muslim use same standard judging Prophet Paul to judging Muh’d?
Unlike Muh’d, Paul had witnesses when he & his road companions met Jesus as a light & a voice.
Yet, muslims, don’t believe PAUL?
Muslims tout Paul as evil, satanic & going against doctrines of Jesus.
Paul NEVER calls Jesus a liar BUT(!) quran does!
Qurans Sura 4:157 refutes words of Jesus!
Islams response? Bibles corrupt!
Quran is w/o PROOF from outside sources. Qurans a circular fallacy.
Teachings of Prophet Paul were confirmed by 4 Prophets/Teachers at Church of Antioch!
Please name 2 Prophets who had confirmed Muh’d teachings (Q 3:81) as confirming the Torah of Moses & Gospel of Yahu'shua?
Who witnessed Muh’d confirming the scriptures B4 him?
Yhwh was mentioned 6,000 x’s in Torah, why not once in quran?
Gal 1:20 states Paul does NOT lie.
Prophet Barnabas, Apostles James, Peter & John are eye-witnesses/teachers ensuring Jesus’ gospel was properly passed to Prophet Paul.
Until muslims can name these prophets who witnessed Muhammad had confirmed the scriptures of the propets B4 him, MUSLIMS still hold the corrupted passport(quran) in their hands & HAVE to accept Jesus as their LORD & Saviour until Q 3:81 is fulfilled!
Q 10:94 states Muh’d NEEDS to go back to the Torah & injeel to find prophets to VALIDATE HIM!
If muslims consistently say the injeel & Torah are corrupted, then Muh’d can NOT be validated by a corrupted “passport�!
Qurans completely [FABRICATED], hence; a BOOK OF LIES.
What sources does it have to PROVE it is true?
Muslims BOAST they memorize the quran; so why memorize mans lies?
Jere 17:5 says GOD curseth the man who trusteth man!
All TRUE prophets relied ON GOD to tell them what to say.
Man is evil & NOT-2B-TRUSTED! Titus 1:15 Not even respected! Rom 2:11
Paul & all TRUE prophets relied on Gods words for truth. See Luke 12:12 & Matt 10:19-20
Surah 36:13-14; 3rd messenger is Paul, True Prophet in Islam
In Arabic, 1st two are John & Simon, the third? PAUL !
Ibn Kathir's tafsir - Surah Yaseen 36:13:
"When We sent to them 2 Messengers, they denied them both…so We reinforced them w/3rd, means, `We supported & strengthened them w/3d Messenger. ' Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba'i, "Names of 1st 2 Messengers were Sham`un & Yuhanna, & 3rd was Bulus,
Sham'un = Simon, Yuhanna = John & Bulus = Paul.
Paul prophesies the CREATION of a NEW Jesus by Islam: Eesa (2 Cor 11:4)
Paul also prophesied of the false prophet: Muhammad who brought a NEW gospel(Islam) via an angel; Gabriel (Gal 1:8-9)
GAL 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 11:4 For if he(Muhammad) that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit(Gabriel=satan), which ye have not received, or another gospel(Islam)
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
