Negative Energy

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olavisjo
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Negative Energy

Post #1

Post by olavisjo »

.
In another thread a member wrote...
no evidence no belief wrote:I give you my word that the notion that gravitational (potential) energy has negative value (as opposed to matter and other forms of energy which have positive values) is completely uncontroversial.
I am struggling to understand what this means or how to conceptualize it.

It seems that the total energy of the universe is equal to energy (matter, energy, dark matter and dark energy) plus gravitational energy giving us a total of zero.

E + Ge = 0

Is there any evidence that gravity is negative energy? Is it possible to separate nothing into energy and gravity?
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LiamOS
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Post #2

Post by LiamOS »

Potential energy is not energy per se, merely the potential to attain energy. The term is somewhat misleading.

To have potential energy, there must be excess energy present in the system elsewhere, which changes the state of the system when released.

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Post #3

Post by olavisjo »

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LiamOS wrote:
Potential energy is not energy per se, merely the potential to attain energy. The term is somewhat misleading.

To have potential energy, there must be excess energy present in the system elsewhere, which changes the state of the system when released.

I am still confused, so I will tell you how I conceptualize energy and gravity.

When an apple (100 g) falls 1 meter, it creates 1 Joule of energy in the form of kinetic energy.

The world now has 1 Joule of energy that was not there before. Where did it come from?

I believe that the apple and the Earth lost almost 1 joule of mass. (the moon and sun lost a very tiny amount and the stars even far less)

So, the potential energy was stored in the mass of the system and not in the gravity.

Gravity is a force, not energy or negative energy.

What am I missing?
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

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Nilloc James
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Post #4

Post by Nilloc James »

That violates conservation of energy which holds in such simple newtonian system. The answer is "it takes work to move against gravity, that energy then available when the apple falls".

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Re: Negative Energy

Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

olavisjo wrote: Is there any evidence that gravity is negative energy? Is it possible to separate nothing into energy and gravity?
Yes, actually there is observed evidence to support this. Although, in terms of gravity it is necessarily more theoretical than measurable.

You are probably aware that in quantum mechanics virtual particles are always popping into and out of existence. They are created in pairs of matter and antimatter. However, what is seldom mentioned is that they also have mass and/or energy.

Now if we consider the concept of General Relativity, then anytime we have mass or energy we necessarily have created gravity. We have created a warping of the fabric of spacetime (which is what we call gravity).

Therefore we can view this process as virtual particles popping into existence and creating basically three types of things. Matter, Anti-matter, and Gravity.

We can't ignore the fact that gravity is being "created" in this process along with these particles of mass and/or energy.

So in answer to your question, "Yes, according to quantum theory, General Relativity, and observational experiments, nothing can be separated into matter/energy and gravity."

And because of this process it may be possible that Gravity could somehow be the opposite of matter/energy in terms of conversational balance. And thus if we consider gravity to be "negative energy" from a mathematical point of view, the total energy of the universe could sum to zero.

Calculations have been made along those lines, and I think they do work out to sum to zero.

So yes, this is a viable hypothesis. I'm not sure if it has been accepted or confirmed to be a correct hypothesis, but it's certainly a viable hypothesis in light of these physical theories.

The very existence of gravity is entirely dependent upon, and caused by the energy/matter content of the universe. If there was no matter in the universe there would be no gravity either. So they are clearly mutually dependent.

The question then becomes: Did these virtual particles actually pop into existence from nothing? Or was there something there from whence they came?
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Mixing up the concepts...

Post #6

Post by Aetixintro »

Hi

The OP is mixing up the concepts.

1. There are no "negative" energies outside the Electromagnetic forces, from the traditional 4.

2. As long as there is mass, there has to be lots of positive energies in the Universe, i.e., there are energies in the Universe. So: don't start the "voodoo"/"hippies" nonsense of positive/negative energies.

Which leads to the politeness of 2nd poster, inferring thought of potential and kinetic energy.

Well, well, this is basic physics. Please, read up!
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Post #7

Post by Ooberman »

When an apple falls, it means it is attracted to the Earth, and the Earth is attracted to the mass of the apple. Since the Earth is bigger, it doesn't move, the apple does.

If the apple was bigger - like the Moon, it would pull the Earth towards it slightly. Meanwhile, the Sun is pulling the Earth - and, likewise, the Earth (like the apple) is too small to affect the Sun.

When the apple falls it loses energy to the Earth, and the Earth loses energy to the apple. Obviously, the Earth - with it's mass - can afford to lose the energy.

Also, the apple will lose a little bit of energy from sound and heat when it hits air molecules, and the Earth below.

Call it negative or positive, or black and white, or whatever - the point is there is a transfer of energy. The energy is never destroyed, only transferred.
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