Homosexuality and Adultery may have biological roots

Debating issues regarding sexuality

Moderator: Moderators

stcordova
Apprentice
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:57 am

Homosexuality and Adultery may have biological roots

Post #1

Post by stcordova »

I'm a Christian. I once fell very much in love with a married woman. Thankfully we did nothing we would regret.

We met each other under innocent enough circumstances, but then one day I realized how much I wanted to spend every day of my life with her.

Let us call her Helen (not her real name). If we had ended up together, would it have been right in God's eyes? Suppose for the sake of argument we would have been definitely happier together, like a hungry man eating stolen food -- there is not any doubt in terms of biology that the stolen food would be nourishing. I don't think any amount of spiritual exercise would have changed the fact I was attracted to an athletic blonde who was an engineer as well as a concert pianist who was also soft spoken and sweet tempered. I remember the tears in her eyes when she confessed she was married (but separated) to me. I don't think it was my choice to like women like Helen. I just did. And there is most certainly roots of my attraction based on biology.

I think the problem of homosexuality is under a similar biological imperative due to either genetics, epigenetics, developmental and environmental factors. Even supposing someone isn't born gay, but developed that way, it does not mean the desires are necessarily reversible biologically. For example, I have friends addicted to nicotene. They weren't born addicted to nicotene, but there is now a biological imperative in their bodies that they'll have to live with. Whatever the mechanism of homosexuality, I take it on face value the gay lifestyle is what will make some people happy (at least in this life), and what some people might be biologically "addicted" to. But a gay lifestyle doesn't necessarily make it right.

Does God necessarily want people to be happily married? I'd say no.

There is an obscure passage in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, if a man’s brother dies, he is to marry his brother’s widow. It was then possible to have more than one wife because of this requirement in OT law. And the Lord had certain instructions for the man how to treat his wives, but the instruction belies a certain truth about human nature:

15 “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved,

Deuteronomy 21:15
So we have one woman unloved in a marriage that God commanded (a levirate marriage). It's not a stretch to say the unloved wife is not exactly a fulfilled wife.....

This episode in my life were I fell in love with a married woman raised other questions such as those epitomized by Nathaniel Hawthorne’s The Scarlett Letter where a young beautiful girl, Hester Prynne, got married to a fiendish old man, Roger Chillingworth, because of her poverty and his wealth. She travels to the United States before her husband arrives and while there she falls in love and has a child with Rev. Arthur Dimsdale.

Amazing that probably lots of Christian girls will think the moral thing to do would be for Hester to dump Roger the fiend and run off with Rev. Dimsdale for a new life. When I first read the story, I had to confess I was rooting for Hester and the Reverend to run off together and live happily ever after.

And there were fiends and villains married to members of my family. It was hard not to root for the separation. It was hard not to think, “surely a loving God wouldn’t want a life of misery for someone with a lousy partner.�


If one thinks the barometer of good and evil is personal happiness and loving happy relationship, then there seems little reason to prevent people from joining with those that will make them happy. If on the other hand, God is less interested in us living happily ever after on Earth, but keeping faith with a law (the justification of which we may not understand), then that's what we should do.

That was the decision Rosaria Butterfield made.

http://rosariabutterfield.com/

Eternity

Re: Homosexuality and Adultery may have biological roots

Post #11

Post by Eternity »

[Replying to post 1 by stcordova]

[Replying to post 1 by stcordova]

Marriage? Well, has anyone asked the question, "How does the Bible define marriage? You bring up the levirate marriage but that OT Law does not define what a marriage is anymore than that the Bible does not define marriage. The Law just says that,
"in which the brother of a deceased man is obliged to marry his brother's widow, and the widow is obliged to marry her deceased husband's brother."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

How odd that, levirate is a derivative of the Latin word levir. Ibid. I would have thought that the word would have been a derivative of a Hebrew word.

Again, what constitutes a marriage (marriage as modern man defines it) in the OT?

The only thing that begins to define marriage is when a man has intercourse with a woman. The Law then says that sexual act, intercourse, obligates a man to take care of the woman. There are many examples of this in the OT. What there is not, is any Law given as a precept of God, the Hebrew God, that defines what we call marriage.

Not even the NT defines marriage as we know it. What does this say in regards to claiming what God says about marriage? Seems to me to be man's perception, a fantasy or, an order to society's needs. And, after all, is this not what the Bible is anyway, man's ordering of a justification of life's ways?

The same applies to the acceptance of homosexuality.

If a homosexual exists and one believes that there is a Creator, then homosexuals are that Creator's creation. Either way, with or without a creation by a Creator, homosexuality is real, objective unlike the notion of men that homosexuality is an abomination, subjective. No matter how ordered society may be there is always a petty misrepresentation of what mankind represents.

There is a misconception in regards to what the Bible does say and it begins with Genesis 1: 27. Get what 1: 27 says right and the Bible takes on a whole new meaning, one that can be followed clear through the OT and the NT.

A condemnation of homosexuality using the Bible is moralism. The Bible does not teach moralism. Morality is not moralism. There is one sin in the Bible and that is idolatry. There are many catalogs in the Bible that speak of similar issues of vices and virtues. Looking closely at what these catalogs define you come to believe that there is just one sin and not many, that sin is singular. This singular sin then fits nicely with the concept that the Bible is clearly speaking about the same thing throughout the OT and the NT. But, the Bible is not about sin. The Bible is about mankind's life. Man's spirit (which is, life.) 1: 27 speaks of man having being created in God's image. What is that image? How does man know what is God's image? Now we are talking about the Doctrine of Creation, man's perception. Whatever God's image is, it is only a perception of man. We see God as good, omnipotent, etc., and that God is Spirit. If God is Spirit, then the image that we were created is God's Spirit. This orders man's perception of God throughout the Bible.

You loved a married woman and that complicates many issues of life that have an order. Never mind that your love can be construed as lust but that lust then disrupts man's order. The sin is not about sex. Sex is not the definition of sin. I realize that you said that you never acted sexually on that love but, had you, you would have disrupted the order established by the law. Follow the OT Law and you will begin to see just what the sin was being addressed. OT Law had everything to do with justice. Again, an ordering of things.

Condemnation of homosexuality by Christians has nothing to do with a sexual sin but it has everything to do with order.

Eternity

Post #12

Post by Eternity »

[Replying to post 1 by stcordova]

Marriage? Well, has anyone asked the question, "How does the Bible define marriage? You bring up the levirate marriage but that OT Law does not define what a marriage is anymore than that the Bible does not define marriage. The Law just says that,
"in which the brother of a deceased man is obliged to marry his brother's widow, and the widow is obliged to marry her deceased husband's brother."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

How odd that, levirate is a derivative of the Latin word levir. Ibid. I would have thought that the word would have been a derivative of a Hebrew word.

Again, what constitutes a marriage (marriage as modern man defines it) in the OT?

The only thing that begins to define marriage is when a man has intercourse with a woman. The Law then says that sexual act, intercourse, obligates a man to take care of the woman. There are many examples of this in the OT. What there is not, is any Law given as a precept of God, the Hebrew God, that defines what we call marriage.

Not even the NT defines marriage as we know it. What does this say in regards to claiming what God says about marriage? Seems to me to be man's perception, a fantasy or, an order to society's needs. And, after all, is this not what the Bible is anyway, man's ordering of a justification of life's ways?

The same applies to the acceptance of homosexuality.

If a homosexual exists and one believes that there is a Creator, then homosexuals are that Creator's creation. Either way, with or without a creation by a Creator, homosexuality is real, objective unlike the notion of men that homosexuality is an abomination, subjective. No matter how ordered society may be there is always a petty misrepresentation of what mankind represents.

There is a misconception in regards to what the Bible does say and it begins with Genesis 1: 27. Get what 1: 27 says right and the Bible takes on a whole new meaning, one that can be followed clear through the OT and the NT.

A condemnation of homosexuality using the Bible is moralism. The Bible does not teach moralism. Morality is not moralism. There is one sin in the Bible and that is idolatry. There are many catalogs in the Bible that speak of similar issues of vices and virtues. Looking closely at what these catalogs define you come to believe that there is just one sin and not many, that sin is singular. This singular sin then fits nicely with the concept that the Bible is clearly speaking about the same thing throughout the OT and the NT. But, the Bible is not about sin. The Bible is about mankind's life. Man's spirit (which is, life.) 1: 27 speaks of man having being created in God's image. What is that image? How does man know what is God's image? Now we are talking about the Doctrine of Creation, man's perception. Whatever God's image is, it is only a perception of man. We see God as good, omnipotent, etc., and that God is Spirit. If God is Spirit, then the image that we were created is God's Spirit. This orders man's perception of God throughout the Bible.

You loved a married woman and that complicates many issues of life that have an order. Never mind that your love can be construed as lust but that lust then disrupts man's order. The sin is not about sex. Sex is not the definition of sin. I realize that you said that you never acted sexually on that love but, had you, you would have disrupted the order established by the law. Follow the OT Law and you will begin to see just what the sin was being addressed. OT Law had everything to do with justice. Again, an ordering of things.

Condemnation of homosexuality by Christians has nothing to do with a sexual sin but it has everything to do with order.

User avatar
Beans
Banned
Banned
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:24 am
Location: Prefer not to disclose that or my year of birth over the Internet

Post #13

Post by Beans »

Eternity wrote: [Replying to post 1 by stcordova]

Marriage? Well, has anyone asked the question, "How does the Bible define marriage? You bring up the levirate marriage but that OT Law does not define what a marriage is anymore than that the Bible does not define marriage. The Law just says that,
"in which the brother of a deceased man is obliged to marry his brother's widow, and the widow is obliged to marry her deceased husband's brother."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

How odd that, levirate is a derivative of the Latin word levir. Ibid. I would have thought that the word would have been a derivative of a Hebrew word.

Again, what constitutes a marriage (marriage as modern man defines it) in the OT?

The only thing that begins to define marriage is when a man has intercourse with a woman. The Law then says that sexual act, intercourse, obligates a man to take care of the woman. There are many examples of this in the OT. What there is not, is any Law given as a precept of God, the Hebrew God, that defines what we call marriage.

Not even the NT defines marriage as we know it. What does this say in regards to claiming what God says about marriage? Seems to me to be man's perception, a fantasy or, an order to society's needs. And, after all, is this not what the Bible is anyway, man's ordering of a justification of life's ways?

The same applies to the acceptance of homosexuality.

If a homosexual exists and one believes that there is a Creator, then homosexuals are that Creator's creation. Either way, with or without a creation by a Creator, homosexuality is real, objective unlike the notion of men that homosexuality is an abomination, subjective. No matter how ordered society may be there is always a petty misrepresentation of what mankind represents.

There is a misconception in regards to what the Bible does say and it begins with Genesis 1: 27. Get what 1: 27 says right and the Bible takes on a whole new meaning, one that can be followed clear through the OT and the NT.

A condemnation of homosexuality using the Bible is moralism. The Bible does not teach moralism. Morality is not moralism. There is one sin in the Bible and that is idolatry. There are many catalogs in the Bible that speak of similar issues of vices and virtues. Looking closely at what these catalogs define you come to believe that there is just one sin and not many, that sin is singular. This singular sin then fits nicely with the concept that the Bible is clearly speaking about the same thing throughout the OT and the NT. But, the Bible is not about sin. The Bible is about mankind's life. Man's spirit (which is, life.) 1: 27 speaks of man having being created in God's image. What is that image? How does man know what is God's image? Now we are talking about the Doctrine of Creation, man's perception. Whatever God's image is, it is only a perception of man. We see God as good, omnipotent, etc., and that God is Spirit. If God is Spirit, then the image that we were created is God's Spirit. This orders man's perception of God throughout the Bible.

You loved a married woman and that complicates many issues of life that have an order. Never mind that your love can be construed as lust but that lust then disrupts man's order. The sin is not about sex. Sex is not the definition of sin. I realize that you said that you never acted sexually on that love but, had you, you would have disrupted the order established by the law. Follow the OT Law and you will begin to see just what the sin was being addressed. OT Law had everything to do with justice. Again, an ordering of things.

Condemnation of homosexuality by Christians has nothing to do with a sexual sin but it has everything to do with order.
What about the institution of marriage being an image of God's commitment toward us? That we in image of him commit to bonds of loyalty for the enrichment of another in the same unbreakable manner that he commits to our welfare?

User avatar
Beyonder
Student
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:13 am
Location: Beyond Realm
Contact:

Post #14

Post by Beyonder »

Overcomer wrote: stcordova wrote:
I think that the reason God would make a world with pain is that it makes more meaningful a world that is without pain.
God didn't make a world with pain. The Bible states clearly that the world he made was good and the human beings he made were very good. It was man's disobedience to God and the introduction of sin that brought about the pain. He does use pain to a positive end. But he didn't create it. It's part of a fallen world, but was never part of his perfect one.
I have to agree on this he doesn't cause the Bad in people he doesn't cause the Evil it's our "Free Will" and ee blame him more than we blame the devil.....the one who caused sin.

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #15

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 14 by Beyonder]

Who created the devil?

A17
Student
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:03 pm

Post #16

Post by A17 »

Well, according to the teachings of Yehoshua(Jesus), loving her with agape love is ok, but with lust is not. The latter can be resisted as well as the former. Yehoshua also expressed that, if someone is married then separates, that they are free to marry once the spouse is dead. Would make sense especially if the marriage vow was: till death due us part.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10033
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1221 times
Been thanked: 1620 times

Post #17

Post by Clownboat »

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Beyonder]

Who created the devil?
Look, I may have created a virus that killed off half the planet, and I may have given said virus to people that wanted to kill others, but it is not my fault that the virus killed off 1/2 of the planet.

You see, these people that wanted to kill the others off only did so because the 1/2 brought it upon themselves. Therefore it is the fault of the 1/2. Don't blame me, the creator of the virus that put it into the hands of the people that I knew would use it to kill off 1/2 the planet.

:shock:
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9129
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Post #18

Post by bluethread »

Clownboat wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Beyonder]

Who created the devil?
Look, I may have created a virus that killed off half the planet, and I may have given said virus to people that wanted to kill others, but it is not my fault that the virus killed off 1/2 of the planet.

You see, these people that wanted to kill the others off only did so because the 1/2 brought it upon themselves. Therefore it is the fault of the 1/2. Don't blame me, the creator of the virus that put it into the hands of the people that I knew would use it to kill off 1/2 the planet.

:shock:
Ok, where is this case going to be tried and what is the legal remedy, based on what legal code? Even in the secular legal system, third party influence is not a complete defense, it is a mitigating factor, but the principle of equity requires that there be a remedy for every legal action. If there is not remedy, there is no cause of action.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10033
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1221 times
Been thanked: 1620 times

Post #19

Post by Clownboat »

bluethread wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Beyonder]

Who created the devil?
Look, I may have created a virus that killed off half the planet, and I may have given said virus to people that wanted to kill others, but it is not my fault that the virus killed off 1/2 of the planet.

You see, these people that wanted to kill the others off only did so because the 1/2 brought it upon themselves. Therefore it is the fault of the 1/2. Don't blame me, the creator of the virus that put it into the hands of the people that I knew would use it to kill off 1/2 the planet.

:shock:
Ok, where is this case going to be tried and what is the legal remedy, based on what legal code? Even in the secular legal system, third party influence is not a complete defense, it is a mitigating factor, but the principle of equity requires that there be a remedy for every legal action. If there is not remedy, there is no cause of action.
This is not a legal case and will not be tried. Nice try though. In truth blue, you don't need to respond to any of this for my expanding on "who created the devil" to be understood by the readers.

I guess I could take your approach though. Let's see how that strikes ya.

Why do I suffer from original sin? Where was the case against Adam and Eve tried and what was the legal remedy and based on what legal code? Until you supply this info, I claim I am not guilty of any original sin you would wish to place on me.

Recap:
- It's not gods fault, the Devil created sin.
- Who created the Devil? Was it not claimed to be god?
- Virus scenario where I showed I am not at fault either. :whistle:
- Still not god's fault??? :-k
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9129
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Post #20

Post by bluethread »

Clownboat wrote:
bluethread wrote:
Ok, where is this case going to be tried and what is the legal remedy, based on what legal code? Even in the secular legal system, third party influence is not a complete defense, it is a mitigating factor, but the principle of equity requires that there be a remedy for every legal action. If there is not remedy, there is no cause of action.
This is not a legal case and will not be tried. Nice try though. In truth blue, you don't need to respond to any of this for my expanding on "who created the devil" to be understood by the readers.
Of course, I don't need to respond, but this is a forum and not a PM. That said, your comparison appears to be saying that the actions of a creator deity is equivalent to you causing an epidemic. Where you not saying that your causing the epidemic make you culpable? If so, what would be the effect of that on you? If there was no remedy required of you and/or no means of enforcing that remedy, your culpability is academic.
I guess I could take your approach though. Let's see how that strikes ya.
OK
Why do I suffer from original sin?
Because, it resulted in a change of the environment, if we are accepting the account in Genesis.

Where was the case against Adam and Eve tried and what was the legal remedy and based on what legal code? Until you supply this info, I claim I am not guilty of any original sin you would wish to place on me.
A. Before Adonai B. A change in the environment C. The command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of (good)yom and (evil)ra'. Someone else may have said that you are guilty of original sin, but I didn't and I do not wish to place that guilt on you. However, that does not mean you are not effected by original sin.
Recap:
- It's not gods fault, the Devil created sin.
- Who created the Devil? Was it not claimed to be god?
- Virus scenario where I showed I am not at fault either. :whistle:
- Still not god's fault??? :-k
Admittedly, I interjected a reply into the reply that you interjected into the discussion between DtD and Beyonder. Since you were interjecting, I thought you considered interjection an acceptable practice, my bad. #-o

So, to be fair to you let me state where I stand on each of the points you list above.

- It's not gods fault, the Devil created sin. - No, the concept of sin is a natural result of choice.

- Who created the Devil? Was it not claimed to be god? - Whether there is an actual being to which the Scriptural adversarial passages refer is debatable, but even if we just see the Adversary as a reference to anyone who opposes Adonai's ways, that individual or individuals would have been created by Adonai.

- Virus scenario where I showed I am not at fault either. :whistle: - Here is where I came in. Without remedy, fault is irrelevant. However, the consequences are. Regardless of fault, those effected must deal with them.

- Still not god's fault??? :-k - OK, so let's say we choose to call it a "fault" on Adonai's part. What now?

Post Reply