Are homosexual relations sinful?

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Mithrae
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Are homosexual relations sinful?

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Post by Mithrae »

In Australia we're currently enduring a postal vote about gay marriage, and the Christian rhetoric which has inevitably been cropping up has reminded me of some thoughts I'd initially had back in 2006.
  • Tuesday, 9 May 2006
    It occurs to me that Christianity may very well have the wrong end of the stick in their view of God. If nothing else, surely what the old testament and the gospels teach us is that God is a covenant God. Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the new covenant; looking back, the Mosaic law is described as the old covenant; he made covenants also with Abraham and David. Perhaps we should not think of God as one who simply sits in the clouds handing out laws. Rather, he is a God who makes covenants with his people; fellowship in return for blessing. . . .

    With the people of Israel God made two covenants. The first was at Sinai, beginning with the ten commandments covering chapters 20 to 23 of Exodus. These are almost exclusively commandments of worship for God and social justice amongst the Israelites, with very little about sacrifical specifications or ritual purity. Chapter 24 describes the confirmation of this covenant and the people's agreement to abide by the terms written within the 'book of the covenant.' The second covenant was made in the lands east of the Jordan River, before Moses died and the people crossed over (Deuteronomy 29:1), and covers chapters 5 to 28 of Deuteronomy (with the earlier chapters being the preamble). Laws concerning such things as legal cases, the king, cities of refuge and warfare regulations (chapters 17 to 20) make it clear that this is essentially the constitution of the new nation of Israel.
The bible does not say that God gave any rules or commandments at all to Adam and Eve, except the bit about the tree; and similarly, Jeremiah clearly states that the new covenant to come would be "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:31). In commenting on that passage the author of Hebrews writes "In that he says, “A new covenant,� he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

How can it be that at one time it was "sinful" to sow a field with two kinds of seed, or wear a garment made of two kinds of cloth (Leviticus 19:19), yet Christians now would almost universally consider these to be silly and outdated concepts? Why did commands like that exist in the first place? I believe they were intended to ingrain into the Israelite people the concept of their separateness from the nations around them, to reinforce and strengthen their own national identity. But then, that same kind of practical purpose seems to obviously underlie the prohibition against same-sex relations too (or the exclusion of anyone who'd suffered genital injuries in Deut. 23:1): A small nation surrounded by enemies would likely need all its people breeding to maintain its strength. Crude and even cruel though those laws may have been, at least we might be able to glean a worthy intention behind them.

But the Christian concept of "sin" as it is usually expressed seems to be utterly blind to the fact that these were part of a covenant - an agreement - between God and Israel, one which the author of Hebrews declared to be obsolete. And according to Jeremiah the new covenant is not to be found in letters of stone or ink in a book; instead "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:31-34). (See also my earlier thread Did apostles think they were writing the 'word of God'?)

Likewise Paul - though he himself remained hung up on homosexuality - captures the more individual nature of the New Agreement perfectly, even as he downplays the everlasting covenant of circumcision:
  • Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. . . .
    13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


    Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’�
    12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Have Christians got the wrong idea of "sin"?

And if the essence of God's will is simply that "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," as Paul says, isn't homosexuality one of the most obvious examples in which freedom in Christ replaces the situational rules of Israel?

An example in fact where Christian attitudes often seem to be almost the opposite of love?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #61

Post by Aetixintro »

Maybe homosexuality as such isn't a sin, even in Biblical terms, in 2020 CE.

However, the underlying problems to personality of homosexuality may make it a sin afterall.

The sin in itself isn't the love between 2 adults of the same sex, but perhaps a negative behavior to life in general if we are to be fully honest about it. Maybe an increasing trait under category-schizophrenia until asexual life occurs "down there", down the downward spiral.

Though, fear not. I believe in the cure of homosexuality by Best practice psychiatry, the 3-step method applied consistently for the time needed, the 3-step method being scientific ECT, Olanzapine or better (Zyprexa) and Diazepam-based medical sleep assistance.

All is well for the entire Earth afterall. :D 8-)
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #62

Post by Miles »

Aetixintro wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:55 pm Maybe homosexuality as such isn't a sin, even in Biblical terms, in 2020 CE.
You're right, it isn't, but engaging in homosexual sex is.
Aetixintro wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:55 pm However, the underlying problems to personality of homosexuality may make it a sin afterall.
What "underlying problems to personality" are these?
Aetixintro wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:55 pm The sin in itself isn't the love between 2 adults of the same sex, but perhaps a negative behavior to life in general if we are to be fully honest about it. Maybe an increasing trait under category-schizophrenia until asexual life occurs "down there", down the downward spiral.
But nothing in the Bible points to this being the case. From what can be gathered from the Bible, and this is far from just my conclusion, no resultant effect(s) from homosexual sex are given as a reason for god's dislike of it. For whatever unknown reason god just doesn't like people engaging in homosexual sex.
Aetixintro wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:55 pmThough, fear not. I believe in the cure of homosexuality by Best practice psychiatry, the 3-step method applied consistently for the time needed, the 3-step method being scientific ECT, Olanzapine or better (Zyprexa) and Diazepam-based medical sleep assistance.
In light of the fact that neither psychiatry nor drugs have been found to have any lasting effect on changing sexual orientation, just why would you believe this?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #63

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Miles wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:25 pm ... no resultant effect(s) from homosexual sex are given as a reason for god's dislike of it. For whatever unknown reason god just doesn't like people engaging in homosexual sex.
Just can't believe in an arbitrary, capricious God. I think He has His reasons for everything He thinks, says, and does. Either there is a reason why God dislikes homosexuality, or there isn't. If there is, we should be able to determine what that reason is. If there isn't, we should shrug off our prejudices in this respect, and welcome our gay brothers and sisters into full membership of the Christian communion, and let them act out their God-given natures.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #64

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:07 am I think you are ignoring JS Mill's harm principle
I certainly hope so, not least because it does not apply biblically.

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others." - On Liberty, John Stuart Mill ( British philosopher)
While homosexual practices are prohibited by bible law, no one is obliged to obey those laws against their will. Even under the Mosaic law anyone was free to leave the territory and go and live were such practices were common even honoured as part of pagan religious rites. Today as in the past, anyone that wishes to engage in such behaviours are free to do so, just as bible believing Christians are free not tolerate such things amongst their number.




WHO IS HARMED BY CONSENSUAL HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICES?

Such practices are harmful to individuals concerned
  • spiritually : damages his or her relationship with God which ultimately can if uncorrected lead to premature death (see Ezekiel 18:20)
  • socially : damages their relationship with God fearing members of society; denies any children conceived their God given right to be raised by both parents united in biblically sound marriage. Degrades society in God's eyes (see Romans 1:26).

CONCLUSION God is neither arbitrary or vindictive in prohibiting homosexual practices. Biblically speaking he designed the human body as well as our own sexual and emotional makeup and prohibits actions that can cause us and society short or long term harm.




JW



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SEX, SIN and ...HOMOSEXUALITY
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #65

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:13 am WHO IS HARMED BY CONSENSUAL HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICES?

Such practices are harmful to individuals concerned
  • spiritually : damages his or her relationship with God which ultimately can if uncorrected lead to premature death (see Ezekiel 18:20)
  • socially : damages their relationship with God fearing members of society; denies any children conceived their God given right to be raised by both parents united in biblically sound marriage. Degrades society in God's eyes (see Romans 1:26).

CONCLUSION God is neither arbitrary or vindictive in prohibiting homosexual practices. Biblically speaking he designed the human body as well as our own sexual and emotional makeup and prohibits actions that can cause us and society short or long term harm.




JW
There are existing and long-standing objections to every single one of those claims which must be resolved. You have an epistemic responsibility to resolve those objections in order for your belief about homosexuality to be justified. Meanwhile, the consequences of such religious rhetoric is routinely demonstrated to be more harmful than what you perceive about homosexual relations. In other words, regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, you should equally oppose the anti-homosexual agenda for the irrefutable harm it has caused and continues to cause. An analogous scenario would be that, regardless of what the Nazi's believed about the Jews, they should have equally opposed the anti-Jew agenda for the irrefutable harm it was causing.

Side note: It wouldn't surprise me if the Nazis, at some point, argued that they had the right to not tolerate Jewish behavior in Germany and encouraged the Jews to go live together somewhere else where their Jewishness would be honored among their number. How horrible would it be if someone today had the audacity to say something similar about an entire demographic of people?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #66

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 am ... regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, you should equally oppose the anti-homosexual agenda for the irrefutable harm it has caused and continues to cause.
What exactly is "the anti-homosexual agenda"?
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #67

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:23 am
bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 am ... regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, you should equally oppose the anti-homosexual agenda for the irrefutable harm it has caused and continues to cause.
What exactly is "the anti-homosexual agenda"?
That is something you need to explore, in your own mind, for your own benefit. By way of an introduction, however, I would suggest the question: is it just that heterosexuals are allowed sex pretty much whenever they want, but homosexuals are not?

Best of wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #68

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:37 am
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:25 pm ... no resultant effect(s) from homosexual sex are given as a reason for god's dislike of it. For whatever unknown reason god just doesn't like people engaging in homosexual sex.
Just can't believe in an arbitrary, capricious God. I think He has His reasons for everything He thinks, says, and does. Either there is a reason why God dislikes homosexuality, or there isn't. If there is, we should be able to determine what that reason is. If there isn't, we should shrug off our prejudices in this respect, and welcome our gay brothers and sisters into full membership of the Christian communion, and let them act out their God-given natures.
Regardless of what god's reason(s) may be, I think we should shrug off any prejudices we may have and welcome our gay brothers and sisters into full membership of our society.

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #69

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:22 pm..I would suggest the question: is it just that heterosexuals are allowed sex pretty much whenever they want, but homosexuals are not?


No the question is just what I asked What exactly is "the anti-homosexual agenda"? I'm sure bluegreenearth is more than capable of explaining what (s)he means by the expression.

NOTE In debate it is not unusual to be expected to define your terms.



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #70

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:23 am
bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 am ... regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, you should equally oppose the anti-homosexual agenda for the irrefutable harm it has caused and continues to cause.
What exactly is "the anti-homosexual agenda"?
I believe the common agenda among homosexual hate groups is to limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible. But you can read all about it at 18 Anti-Gay Groups and Their Propaganda

.

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