Are homosexual relations sinful?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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Mithrae
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Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

In Australia we're currently enduring a postal vote about gay marriage, and the Christian rhetoric which has inevitably been cropping up has reminded me of some thoughts I'd initially had back in 2006.
  • Tuesday, 9 May 2006
    It occurs to me that Christianity may very well have the wrong end of the stick in their view of God. If nothing else, surely what the old testament and the gospels teach us is that God is a covenant God. Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the new covenant; looking back, the Mosaic law is described as the old covenant; he made covenants also with Abraham and David. Perhaps we should not think of God as one who simply sits in the clouds handing out laws. Rather, he is a God who makes covenants with his people; fellowship in return for blessing. . . .

    With the people of Israel God made two covenants. The first was at Sinai, beginning with the ten commandments covering chapters 20 to 23 of Exodus. These are almost exclusively commandments of worship for God and social justice amongst the Israelites, with very little about sacrifical specifications or ritual purity. Chapter 24 describes the confirmation of this covenant and the people's agreement to abide by the terms written within the 'book of the covenant.' The second covenant was made in the lands east of the Jordan River, before Moses died and the people crossed over (Deuteronomy 29:1), and covers chapters 5 to 28 of Deuteronomy (with the earlier chapters being the preamble). Laws concerning such things as legal cases, the king, cities of refuge and warfare regulations (chapters 17 to 20) make it clear that this is essentially the constitution of the new nation of Israel.
The bible does not say that God gave any rules or commandments at all to Adam and Eve, except the bit about the tree; and similarly, Jeremiah clearly states that the new covenant to come would be "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:31). In commenting on that passage the author of Hebrews writes "In that he says, “A new covenant,� he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

How can it be that at one time it was "sinful" to sow a field with two kinds of seed, or wear a garment made of two kinds of cloth (Leviticus 19:19), yet Christians now would almost universally consider these to be silly and outdated concepts? Why did commands like that exist in the first place? I believe they were intended to ingrain into the Israelite people the concept of their separateness from the nations around them, to reinforce and strengthen their own national identity. But then, that same kind of practical purpose seems to obviously underlie the prohibition against same-sex relations too (or the exclusion of anyone who'd suffered genital injuries in Deut. 23:1): A small nation surrounded by enemies would likely need all its people breeding to maintain its strength. Crude and even cruel though those laws may have been, at least we might be able to glean a worthy intention behind them.

But the Christian concept of "sin" as it is usually expressed seems to be utterly blind to the fact that these were part of a covenant - an agreement - between God and Israel, one which the author of Hebrews declared to be obsolete. And according to Jeremiah the new covenant is not to be found in letters of stone or ink in a book; instead "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:31-34). (See also my earlier thread Did apostles think they were writing the 'word of God'?)

Likewise Paul - though he himself remained hung up on homosexuality - captures the more individual nature of the New Agreement perfectly, even as he downplays the everlasting covenant of circumcision:
  • Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. . . .
    13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


    Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’�
    12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Have Christians got the wrong idea of "sin"?

And if the essence of God's will is simply that "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," as Paul says, isn't homosexuality one of the most obvious examples in which freedom in Christ replaces the situational rules of Israel?

An example in fact where Christian attitudes often seem to be almost the opposite of love?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #71

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #66]

Thankfully, other people in the forum have already helped in guiding you to some valuable resources.

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #72

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 am ... regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, you should equally oppose the anti-homosexual agenda for the irrefutable harm it has caused and continues to cause.
Miles wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:58 pm I believe the common agenda among homosexual hate groups is to limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible.
Well if that's what it is, Jehovahs Witnesses do oppose "the anti-homosexual agenda". We are non political and do not take part in social movements but by our actively treating all people with love and teaching others to do the same I believe we are really attacking the cause of harmful ideologies.

The Official Jehovahs Witness statement on human rights reads as follows:
A person who deeply respects the Creator would never violate his fellowman’s rights, for they are an inheritance received from God. A violator of human rights is a robber of inheritances - Awake November 22 1998 p. 12

All people have limits on their freedom, but we (Jehovahs Witnesses) do not advocate limiting the freedoms of any demographic {quote} "as much as possible" and have and do speak out against such a notion.





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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #73

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:04 am
bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 am ... regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, you should equally oppose the anti-homosexual agenda for the irrefutable harm it has caused and continues to cause.
Miles wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:58 pm I believe the common agenda among homosexual hate groups is to limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible.
Well if that's what it is, Jehovahs Witnesses do oppose "the anti-homosexual agenda". We are non political and do not take part in social movements
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
I can't help but think this is somewhat disingenuous. Jehovah's Witnesses preach that homosexuals should not have sex. That seems a pretty limiting social movement effect on freedom to me.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #74

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:49 am That seems a pretty limiting social movement effect on freedom to me.

  • Are you suggesting Jehovahs Witnesses are "a social movement"?
  • Are you suggesting JWs engage in any acts that seeks to "limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible"?
  • Do you think JWs seek to stop anyone from having as much consensual sex as they wish with anyone they wish ? If so how do we go about doing this?




Social movements are defined as networks of informal interactions between a plurality of individuals, groups and/or organizations, engaged in political or cultural conflicts, on the basis of shared collective identities.

source: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10 ... lCode=sora

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #75

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:42 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:49 am That seems a pretty limiting social movement effect on freedom to me.
Are you suggesting Jehovahs Witnesses are "a social movement"?
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All religions are (organised) social movements. I mean nothing derogatory by this.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #76

Post by JehovahsWitness »

No according to the definition of what a social movement is. Perhaps you would like to present some rationale to support your claim.



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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #77

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:51 am No according to the definition of what a social movement is. Perhaps you would like to present some rationale to support your claim
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Social movements are defined as networks of informal interactions between a plurality of individuals, groups and/or organizations, engaged in political or cultural conflicts, on the basis of shared collective identities. It is argued that the concept is sharp enough a) to differentiate social movements from related concepts such as interest groups, political parties, protest events and coalitions
Well, if you define your concept of social movement specifically to exclude religion, politics and economics, it should not be so surprising if your meaning of the term eliminates them. I prefer a looser definition, personally.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #78

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Then provide an alternative defintion (preferably with a supporting reference) and then argue your case. This is I believe a debate forum.
  • Are you suggesting Jehovahs Witnesses are "a social movement"?
  • Are you suggesting JWs engage in any acts that seeks to "limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible"?
  • Do you think JWs seek to stop anyone from having as much consensual sex as they wish with anyone they wish ? If so how do we go about doing this?

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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #79

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:07 am Then provide a defintion preferably with a supporting reference and then argue your case. This is I believe a debate forum.
  • Are you suggesting Jehovahs Witnesses are "a social movement"?
  • Are you suggesting JWs engage in any acts that seeks to "limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible"?
  • Do you think JWs seek to stop anyone from having as much consensual sex as they wish with anyone they wish ? If so how do we go about doing this?
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Social pressure.

I see no reason to provide a definition of 'social movement'. We are both aware of the concept we are talking about. The only issue is, do we want a tight definition, that excludes, or a loose definition, that includes?

Best of wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #80

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:14 amI see no reason to provide a definition of 'social movement'.
Well that's mighty convenient isn't it. .



2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:14 am
Social pressure.

Moving on... how in your opinion is that "social pressure" exerted to achieve any of the below?
  • Are you suggesting JWs engage in any acts that seeks to "limit the freedoms of homosexuals as much as possible"?
  • Do you think JWs seek to stop anyone from having as much consensual sex as they wish with anyone they wish ? If so how do we go about doing this?
(Complete sentences, preferably with at least one verb and an object would be much appreciated)

Homosexuals have the right to engage in certain behaviours depending on the laws of their country of residence. Jehovahs Witnesses do not march, demonstrate, petition or lobby anyone to change those laws. They do not impose their religious standards on anyone and anyone, even a member of their religion or a adult child raised by Jehovahs Witnesss are free to engage in such behaviours if they wish, as long as they themselves do not attempt to limit the freedom of said members to react accordingly.

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Do Jehovahs Witnesses push for social justice?
viewtopic.php?p=934693#p934693
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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