Christian-Sponsored Hatred for Gays

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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Jagella
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Christian-Sponsored Hatred for Gays

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

Do you support Christian hatred for gays?

I was inspired to broach this topic after reading a column in the January 2020 issue of Scientific American. The column written by the editors is entitled Time's Up for "Anti-Gay Therapy." According to those editors:
Although medical and psychological associations have asked explicitly that Congress and state governments ban anti-gay conversion (by Christians), there has been a backlash from (Christian) groups like the Liberty Council, which promotes "evangelical values."
The column condemns the "detestable practice" of the attempt by many Christians to alter a person's homosexuality because the practice does "irreparable harm" to people. Forty-two percent of a subgroup who have had this "therapy" inflicted on them have committed suicide.

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Post #161

Post by Bust Nak »

FWI wrote: Of course, I focus on the activity…This is where the problems lie…Attraction is an interest or admiration for someone. I have these types of feelings for my parents, brothers and sisters, friends, co-workers and even some strangers. But, I don't have a desire to have sex with them! Thus, when this happens to others there are mental health and/or moral issues involved.
This seem self-contradictory, first you say the sexual activity is where the problem lies, then you say when a desire to have sex with certain people there are mental health and/or moral issues involved. Which is it? Sexual activity or sexual attraction? Perhaps you are making a distinction between "mental health and/or moral issues" and "problem?"
No, I really don't wonder about such things. My position has been made clear: Attraction is normal and same sex attraction is abnormal. Thus, certain individuals may experience an abnormal attraction, but this is not considered a sin.
What happened to "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart?"

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EarthScienceguy
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Post #162

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Diagoras]

EarthScienceguy wrote:
]The penalty for any sin is death. But everyone is not dead so that means that God must be having mercy on many more than He is pronouncing judgment on.

<bolding mine>

Or, perhaps, that your god isn’t real. That would certainly fit the facts equally well.
Maybe in this case, but the problem with your conjecture that God does not exist, is that leaves you no solution for the creation of the universe or life. For you the universe just pop into existence without any cause and life also just miraculously just pop into existence.

I am good with my faith at least it does not violate the laws of physics.


Quote:
Most of the time attractions in the sexual arena come from the immoral thoughts that we allow ourselves to have.

<bolding mine>

Surely Christ is in control of all things right now at this very moment? So he’s allowing your thoughts, as well as those of everyone else who might be considering any number of abhorrent actions such as rape or murder. How very holy of him.
If He were to act on your proposal then we would all be dead because of our sinful thoughts this is why He acts on His will and not on what we do.

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Post #163

Post by marco »

FWI wrote:


Of course, I focus on the activity…This is where the problems lie…
It seems to be more of a problem for you than those who participate in same-sex activities. It would be handy if we could describe them all as "weak feminine" or "mentally deficient" while heterosexuals are universally blessed with high morals and good mental health.

To love someone of the same sex may for some be a choice. For many there is no choice and thankfully we have come to the sane realisation that Leviticus is idiotic and wicked. I'm sure that God looking down on the happiness of two humans enjoying each other's company would pronounce it "good" as he did so many things in Genesis.

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Post #164

Post by marco »

EarthScienceguy wrote:

Maybe in this case, but the problem with your conjecture that God does not exist, is that leaves you no solution for the creation of the universe or life. For you the universe just pop into existence without any cause and life also just miraculously just pop into existence.

I am good with my faith at least it does not violate the laws of physics.
The existence of an uncreated being defies the laws we know. To make sense of God we must place him outside of the laws of physics. However, there's no requirement on people to speculate how things came about; inventing a God is one way, but it seems a primitive way.


Most of the time attractions in the sexual arena come from the immoral thoughts that we allow ourselves to have.
That's because old nomads first defined actions as bad. Ignore the nomads and people can get on with their lives; young girls can be free of stoning and gay men can lie down with one another without a bolt of lightning blasting them. We are, many of us, willing slaves to the bearded gentlemen of the bible. A pity.

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Post #165

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to brunumb]

Then how do they explain homosexual behaviour throughout the animal kingdom?
Homosexual behavior in animals:

When was the last time that you saw an animal think and reason? Men do not have to act on their impulses. Men who act on their impulses we usually call criminals.
I guess some penguins just choose to be gay and they don't have the necessary intelligence to pray the gay away. Also, not being surrounded by bigots, they don't have to fight the prejudices experienced by their human counterparts.
Men can choose anything they wish. They can choose to believe believe that the universe was made without any cause, many believe that. The problem with the belief that homosexuality to good and moral is that it hurts the soul of the one performing the acts of homosexuality. This is evidenced by the high rate of suicide in the homosexual community.

Prejudices seem not to have any affect on the high incidences of mental health issues and suicide in the homosexual community. The question is being asked. "In the Netherlands - considered a model for gay equality - how can one understand high rates of psychiatric disorders among gay men?"

Abstract
Despite the Netherlands' reputation as a world leader with respect to gay rights, homosexual Dutch men have much higher rates of mood disorders, anxiety disorders and suicide attempts than heterosexual Dutch men. Epidemiologists report similar disparities elsewhere in Western Europe and North America. These findings have been the focus of a blossoming psychological literature, inspired by minority stress theory and deploying quantitative methods. Our investigation aims to complement this body of work by adopting an ethnographic approach. Drawing from fieldwork conducted in the Netherlands from 2009 to 2010, we explore sociocultural and contextual factors that have received relatively little attention with respect to gay mental health. In the Netherlands - considered a model for gay equality - how can one understand high rates of psychiatric disorders among gay men? This study points to heteronormativity, complex dynamics involving long-term relationships and processes within gay subcultures as key issues. Notwithstanding their putative socioeconomic, legal and political equality, gay men struggled - at various stages of the life cycle - with internalised norms that they found difficult to fulfil. The desire to embody these ideals, and structural constraints in meeting them, could be potent sources of disappointment and distress.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24236852

The Biblical world view states that these norms are hard wired into the all human beings.

"Could be" this study cannot even point to a precise reason why homosexuals in the Netherland would have a higher rate of depression. The only reason is the conviction in their souls that was hardwired by God.


Note also that "Massive Study Finds No Single Genetic Cause of Same-Sex Sexual Behavior". It's undoubtedly not that simple an issue.

Not a simple issue means that the hypothesis that homosexuality is genetic is incorrect.

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Post #166

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 163 by marco]

The existence of an uncreated being defies the laws we know.

Not even a little bit. In fact if one follows a logical progression backwards even atheist arrive at the attributes of God. I have defended this thought many times but debating this on this string would fall way outside the subject.


Quote:

Most of the time attractions in the sexual arena come from the immoral thoughts that we allow ourselves to have.


That's because old nomads first defined actions as bad.

There are actions that are bad.

A man (in the humanity sense) committing adultery would be considered bad actions. And from the bad action comes bad consequences.

Fornication with a minor would be considered bad actions. And from the bad action comes bad consequences.

Homosexual acts which the Bible consider bad actions. And these actions come with bad consequences. There is no escape from the bad actions of homosexual acts even society does except them.

Take for example the Netherlands. Researchers there are asking the questions " In the Netherlands - considered a model for gay equality - how can one understand high rates of psychiatric disorders among gay men?"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24236852
Ignore the nomads and people can get on with their lives; young girls can be free of stoning and gay men can lie down with one another without a bolt of lightning blasting them. We are, many of us, willing slaves to the bearded gentlemen of the bible. A pity.
Man may not like what the Bible has to say about morality, but the fact of the matter is religion and its morality increases the mental health of those that believe.

The amassed research indicates that higher levels of religious belief and practice (known in social science as "religiosity") is associated with better mental health. In particular, the research suggests that higher levels of religiosity are associated with lower rates of depression, anxiety, substance use disorder, and suicidal behavior. Religiosity is also associated with better physical health and subjective well-being.

Likewise, research indicates that religiosity can enhance recovery from mental illness, aiding in the healing process. For example, one classic research study shows that recovery from severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia is better in countries with higher levels of religiosity.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... s-the-link

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Post #167

Post by marco »

EarthScienceguy wrote:
Not even a little bit. In fact if one follows a logical progression backwards even atheist arrive at the attributes of God. I have defended this thought many times but debating this on this string would fall way outside the subject.
You have defended unsuccessfully then.
EarthScienceguy wrote:
Homosexual acts which the Bible consider bad actions. And these actions come with bad consequences. There is no escape from the bad actions of homosexual acts even society does except them.
This is confused. Almost any action can have bad consequences. There is no reason at all why two men sleeping together should result in something bad. There would have to be other factors involved outside of homosexuality.
EarthScienceguy wrote:
Take for example the Netherlands. Researchers there are asking the questions " In the Netherlands - considered a model for gay equality - how can one understand high rates of psychiatric disorders among gay men?"
If people are born gay and others tell them they should change, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone is gay and does not wish family to know, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone is gay and seeks love but cannot find like people, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone is gay and has the misfortunate to go to a church where gay people's proclivities are condemned, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone was gay and had a father who insisted homosexuality leads to destruction, this might lead to mental problems.

In the Netherlands this welcoming country has introduced many of a religion that is strongly opposed to gay people, and so paradoxically in the land of free gays, gays are often assaulted.


EarthScienceguy wrote:


Man may not like what the Bible has to say about morality, but the fact of the matter is religion and its morality increases the mental health of those that believe.
What nonsense. You just have different types of mental problems. Are we suggesting those that are chained to bibles exhibit robust health? In the past the bible's horrific condemnations have led to misery for many young people. The bible may not intend to be evil, but it often is.


Likewise, research indicates that religiosity can enhance recovery from mental illness, aiding in the healing process. For example, one classic research study shows that recovery from severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia is better in countries with higher levels of religiosity.
I suppose religiosity includes the practice of dancing round a pole singing for rain. I have little confidence in social research studies but I would rather have an insane Einstein than a sane Calvin. If someone is going to go mad they will do so with or without God's help.

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Post #168

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to post 161 by EarthScienceguy]

Perhaps it’s my fault for posting twice in quick succession, but I was hoping you’d answer the questions and requests for cites from my post 147 first.

I see Marco has already responded to your point (where you bring up your favourite problem of the beginning of the universe) and I agree with you that we shouldn’t derail this important thread topic. So I’ll leave that for a different forum.

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Post #169

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 166 by marco]
You have defended unsuccessfully then.
With your great command of the English language, that is sincere you do write very well, it would be interesting to see how you would frame that argument.

This is confused. Almost any action can have bad consequences. There is no reason at all why two men sleeping together should result in something bad. There would have to be other factors involved outside of homosexuality.
But as I have shown time and time again it does. Mental illness and depression. Facts will be facts.
If people are born gay and others tell them they should change, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone is gay and does not wish family to know, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone is gay and seeks love but cannot find like people, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone is gay and has the misfortunate to go to a church where gay people's proclivities are condemned, this might lead to mental problems.
If someone was gay and had a father who insisted homosexuality leads to destruction, this might lead to mental problems.
These are nothing but your beliefs. You can believe in anything that you wish, but just because you believe something is true does not make it true.

There is no evidence that people are born gay, there is no "Gay gene".

If there is no "Gay gene" then homosexuality would have to fall under the context of choice. There is evidence that this "choice" was forced upon them by sexual abuse. Which I think is very sad and tragic and the perpetrator of such abuse should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

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Post #170

Post by marco »

EarthScienceguy wrote:
But as I have shown time and time again it does. Mental illness and depression. Facts will be facts.
You quote surveys and you make your private conclusions from those surveys. There are various factors that may have led to the published results and these are subject to analysis and, dare I say, opinion. The best people to decide whether homosexuality is something innate are those who experience it. Outsiders, who have not the slightest inclination towards same-sex relations, can only judge things from their viewpoint. I find it astonishing that they simply say homosexuality is a choice, and that choice can be changed. How do they know?- experience seems to contradict this. We have ignorantly played this record before and the tune has many times been a requiem.

It is ironic that church people who point out that homosexuality leads to mental issues are often the ones who have caused the issues. If someone is constantly told they are freaks, different, disordered and sinful I cannot see how they avoid mental issues unless they are unusually strong. And when they do succumb under pressure, they are told: "I told you so." Can we not for a few moments consider that we are not dealing with a mental illness, but one of the varieties that makes humans so interesting. For many, difference is a threat to be erased.

Had somebody hugged Alan Turing and told him he was just one of nature's many splendid varieties, blessed with a magnificent brain, and loved, he might not have committed suicide. What a mean world he inhabited!
These are nothing but your beliefs. You can believe in anything that you wish, but just because you believe something is true does not make it true.
That applies, my friend, a fortiori to you. In case we are applying a horribly harsh judgment, from ignorance or prejudice, surely it is better to accept the word of those who are gay that they have no choice in the matter. The Victorians subjected them to grotesque correction methods; we have surely become a little wiser, a little kinder.

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