A speculation about Hell

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:56 pm

A long time ago--I forget where or when--I read, in a book on "near-death experiences," that many people live through a sort of "review" of their lives at the moment of death. Some said that the experience seemed to last a mere fraction of a second, and at the same time it seemed to last for years. This may be where that bit of folklore about one's "life passing before one's eyes" when close to death may come from.

One or two sixh reports piqued my interest; these people reported that this "review" did not take place from one's own perspective, but from that of others. One experienced, from their point of view, exactly how one had affected their lives, from the inside, as it were; and not only the people one had actually met, but all those whose lives one had touched indirectly as well.

One relived the moments that one had created in others' lives as those people experienced them. The more power one had, and the more people one had affected in life, the longer such a review would have to be.

If one was kind and charitable, such a review would be mostly pleasant; if one was cold and callous, less so; if one was cruel or sadistic, quite unpleasant indeed. It turns out that we are all connected, and each one of really is a part of everyone else.

There seems to be a certain justice in that to me; the ultimate justice, in a way. What you have done unto others becomes what you have done to yourself. You get to find out "How would that feel to you?" in a literal way.

Now consider Hitler.

How long would his review last? Ten million years? Twenty million? A hundred million centuries? Living through the years, even decades, of misery, torment and agonizing death he had inflicted upon so many millions of people worldwide, and knowing and feeling every moment of them from inside each individual person's body and mind, just as it happened...

If that's not Hell, exactly, it strikes me as being pretty damned close. Not eternal--but plenty long enough. Not flames--but perhaps worse than flames.

The greater the criminal, the longer the sentence. The worse the crime, the more severe the punishment--in direct and precise proportion.

I kinda like it. Any comments?

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:44 pm

servant wrote:Let me ask you a question. Do you believe there is only one God?

That seems an odd question. Yes, of course; ethical monotheism began with the Jews, and that "God is One" is our oldest formulation of the faith.

If you're about to try to make a case for Christianity, don't bother. For one thing, I probably know more about it than you. It's a fine and honorable faith, and I do not say it is false; but it is not for me. Judaism is my home, and has been since I was a child. It only took me 50 years to find that out.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:53 pm

No I'm not trying to make a case for Christianity, just trying to pin point what you believe. Are you christian Jew or do you not believe the Messiah has already come but is yet to come?

servant · Post by **servant** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:02 pm

By the way real quick:

servant wrote:
I base my believes on what the bible says about Hell. Separation from God, gnashing of teeth, uncomfort behind anything we can imagine. So with that being said, your case of what Hell might be like sounds pretty good. Although I would point out that it kind of sounds like you can work off the Hell your describing. Hilter of course would still most likely be working his Hell off were as someone who is just a liar would work their Hell off more quickly. I think this is a flawed idea of what Hell is.

Let me ask you a question if you don't mind. We agree that one day we will die. Lets say there is one God and He is Holy. Lets say that God will punish evil as He is good. If your standing in front of the Holy Judge of the Universe, would He consider you to be innocent or guilty?

I have no way of knowing till I stand there. Jews do not presume to know what God's judgment will be for anyone, not even ourselves.

So your saying that you believe in God but dont know if He punishes people for their sins?

Do you accept the Book of Jeremiah from the Old Testament?

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:04 pm

servant wrote:No I'm not trying to make a case for Christianity, just trying to pin point what you believe. Are you christian Jew or do you not believe the Messiah has already come but is yet to come?

I am a Jew. "Messianic Jews" who believe in Jesus are not Jews, but Christians.

Jews are not sitting around waiting for the Messiah. That has never been a major part of our faith, and many Jews do not believe in a Messiah at all. Those who do do not regard the Messiah as having anything to do with "salvation."

That subject just isn't a matter of interest to us, as I have posted here many times. We don't think about Heaven very much; we don't regard it as an important topic. The focus of Judaism is on this world, not the next. The next is God's business, and we're content to trust Him and leave it at that.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:10 pm

Jews are not sitting around waiting for the Messiah. That has never been a major part of our faith, and many Jews do not believe in a Messiah at all. Those who do do not regard the Messiah as having anything to do with "salvation."

How do people obtain salvation?

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:11 pm

servant wrote:By the way real quick:

....

So your saying that you believe in God but dont know if He punishes people for their sins?

Do you accept the Book of Jeremiah from the Old Testament?

I did not say that at all. One of Maimonides's 13 Points of Belief is a belief in reward and retribution after death; but we do not claim to know what forms those will take. What I was specifically saying here is that Jews do not make pronouncements on who is or is not "saved," including ourselves.

Don't bother with Jeremiah, either. Jews do not use "proof texts" as Christians do.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:23 pm

Do we believe in the same God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The one and only true living God?

Sorry not trying to be a pest, just trying to determine if we believe in the same God.

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:27 pm

servant wrote: How do people obtain salvation?

The first question most Jews would ask is, "Salvation from what?"

We don't believe that humans are born sinful. We don't believe that humans are innately filled with sin and doomed to Hell. Regardless of what Paul says, we have never believed that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the law" and be perfect and without sin to go to Heaven. Many Jews do not believe in an afterlife at all, and those who do certainly don't believe that it's the primary reason to be good, to believe in God, or anything of the kind.

Further, we don't think God is much interested in what we think or believe anyway. He is much more interested in what we do.

I suggest you take a look around at some of my other posts and threads. I have written extensively about many of these issues.

As for "obtaining" salvation, one doesn't. God gives it, at the Last Judgment and not before, and no man has the right to anticipate what His judgment will be. There is no magic formula or statement of faith that is a pre-punched ticket to Heaven.

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:32 pm

servant wrote:Do we believe in the same God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The one and only true living God?

Sorry not trying to be a pest, just trying to determine if we believe in the same God.

You aren't being a pest, but as I said above, most of your questions will be answered in some of my other posts.

Yes, we do believe in the same God; but Jewish and Christian ideas on what our relationship to Him is and ought to be are very different.

I have something else I must do right now, but I'll be happy to take this up again later. Thanks.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:46 pm

As for "obtaining" salvation, one doesn't. God gives it, at the Last Judgment and not before, and no man has the right to anticipate what His judgment will be. There is no magic formula or statement of faith that is a pre-punched ticket to Heaven.

So...we just have no idea until we die. God left us with no idea regarding any of this because....He does not care. I mean didn't God give the Law to Moses?

Regardless of what Paul says, we have never believed that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the law" and be perfect and without sin to go to Heaven.

So you only have to keep part of the Law and be a good person to get into Heaven? The only reason I put it this way is because you said "to go to Heaven". So you believe you can know how to get to Heaven. Right?

Ok lets try and different angle here. I've just been shot and I have only 1 minute to live. I've been a pretty good person but I am scared you know, I am dieing. I am scared I might end up in Hell. Please help me be at peace. How do I get into Heaven? I don't want to be wrong, this is life and death we are talking about and eternity is a long time. Help!