on the atmosphere of this forum

[cnorman18]

Expanded from a comment on another thread:

For some of our newer members, anything less than a total rejection and denial of anything even vaguely "spiritual" or "religious" is evidence of mental defect, aka "irrationality" (as in "you don't know how to think") and worthy of only contempt and derision. In any other context, such an attitude would be called. "intolerant," "doctrinaire," and "disrespectful," but here on the forum of late, civility, tolerance and mutual respect seem to be taking a back seat to scorched-earth tactics and open contempt.

I would readily grant that there are some on the fundamentalist side, again some relative newbies in particular, who are equally guilty of such behavior; but the misdeeds of either side do not justify or make acceptable the incivility of the other, particular when that incivility is applied indiscriminately and not just to the other side's offenders.

I would like to see more moderator intervention, not less. It is one thing to say, "I respectfully disagree." It is quite another to add heavy doses of ridicule, contempt and derision, not to mention personal aspersions on one's ability to reason or one's personal morality and "spiritual vision" or "maturity."

I have been happy here for many months. DC&R has been a place where I could enjoy, as billed, "intelligent, civil, courteous and respectful debate among people of all persuasions." I have found it stimulating, fun, and thought-provoking.

Those days are largely gone. An authentic exchange of ideas is still possible here, but to find it one must wade through and filter out an ocean of spiritual pride, self-righteousness, intellectual arrogance, inflexibly doctrinaire definitions and pronouncements, and, worse than all of these, constant, unrelenting, personally offensive, and sneering contempt for oneself and one's opinions.

I have been posting here virtually every day since November of last year, and I think I have made some significant contributions.
But I no longer feel like I am coming to a friendly, welcoming place where I can quietly talk and compare ideas with friends who like, respect and accept me. I feel like I am going to a fistfight with people who have no regard for me as a human being, who dislike me personally on account of my beliefs, and who neither have nor express any respect whatever for either those views or me. Even some of our older members are beginning to be infected by this uncivil and disrespectful attitude. I think this is a tragedy.

This is becoming an unpleasant place to spend one's time. Some members have already left, including some fine new ones; and I think more will leave if this ugly and acrimonious atmosphere does not change. In fact, I think that is certain.

Early on, I myself threatened to leave this forum on account of what I perceived as unpoliced and unopposed antisemitism. That problem was resolved. This one may be more difficult to handle. It threatens the very reason for the existence of this forum--civil and respectful debate.

Let me make this clear: I DO NOT CARE if you think yourself to be on a righteous crusade to either win the world for Jesus or rid the world of the pernicious plague of religious superstition. Personal respect for the other members of this forum AND FOR THEIR OPINIONS is more important than your "vital mission." How will you argue for your point of view if everyone you would argue it TO leaves in disgust?

As I said on another thread: If you are about disrespecting and demeaning other people, claiming to be spiritually or intellectually superior to them, and sneering at those who do not think or believe as you do--well, as far as I'm concerned, you're full of crap no matter what you believe or how smart you are.

[micatala]

cnorman.

I think you raise some legitimate issues here.

However, the C&A forum is not really the place for this discussion, although I know this is the most heavily used forum and the one where a lot of the issues you raise occur.

However, I am going to move this to Comments and Suggestions forum, as that seems the most appropriate place.

If you want to argue for keeping it here, go ahead and PM me.

[C-Nub]

I think it's a bit of a fine line to walk, honestly.

I follow your posts pretty closely, I find not only do I learn a ton about Jewish history, dogma and perspective from you, but you also conduct yourself in a very adult and respectful way, and I dig that, I do.

But I'm a little less geared towards that. My point of view, I hope, has been made pretty clear elsewhere, and this is not the thread to debate it, but I think on either side, it's something that can't or won't be avoided indefinitely.

I try to be reasonably respectful to the individual, to speak to them as I would in person, but for me, and I don't mean this with disrespect or ill intent to anyone, I don't think that has to extend to what they believe.

I often times find myself wondering what makes religion such a touchy subject, one that has to be tiptoed around with placations and platitudes, rather than just the outright statement of opinion. I'm certainly not one of the more moderate atheists on the forum, I definitely have more militant leanings in that regard, and I'm fairly certain that they'll have rubbed some people the wrong way, but it isn't without a point. Treating religion like something we can't talk openly and honestly about, even if that honesty involves a lack of respect for the very concept of god(s), isn't something that should be prevented because people on either side of the fence are sensitive as to the subject matter.

In my experience (and I have a lot of it) debates are rarely civil, cordial affairs. And I mean 'actual' debates here, with judges and sides and time limits and evidence and all that stuff. There's heckling and sneering and open mockery the whole way through. It's to be expected. This is a lot less formatted and structured, but there's no way there's going to be 'none' of that. I said this elsewhere, and I think it honestly bears repeating; They're just words. If you don't like how they're presented, it's pretty easy to scroll past them and write-off the author as a moron (or just drunk at the time) in doing so.

[otseng]

I agree that the tone has not been the most civil lately on the forum. And the moderators are cognizant of it. We have been trying to crack down on this as evidenced by the people placed on probation lately. There are also several on our monitored list that are close to being on probation.

One major problem lately is that it is difficult to have disciplinary action against a particular member if many people jump on the bandwagon and attack back. And the way we have handled this is by locking the threads, rather than issuing mass probations.

What I would like to ask of everyone is that if you see a personal attack, do not respond to it at all. Simply report the violation and let the moderating team take action. Then we can isolate the offender and take action against him/her.

[cnorman18]

I think it's a bit of a fine line to walk, honestly.

I follow your posts pretty closely, I find not only do I learn a ton about Jewish history, dogma and perspective from you, but you also conduct yourself in a very adult and respectful way, and I dig that, I do.

Thank you. I admit to not being perfect in that regard, but that is indeed my goal.

But I'm a little less geared towards that. My point of view, I hope, has been made pretty clear elsewhere, and this is not the thread to debate it, but I think on either side, it's something that can't or won't be avoided indefinitely.

Lapses are inevitable. They ought not be accepted nor tolerated to any degree. That is a slippery slope, and we are halfway down it already.

I try to be reasonably respectful to the individual, to speak to them as I would in person, but for me, and I don't mean this with disrespect or ill intent to anyone, I don't think that has to extend to what they believe.

The line between not accepting another's belief or approach and expressing contempt or mockery is not a fine one. I have occasionally violated my own standards here, but when confronted with doctrinaire fundamentalism, for instance, I find it more effective to calmly present opposing arguments rather than to ridicule, mock, or otherwise demean such views. That serves no purpose at all but the personal gratification of the mocker. It is neither probative nor persuasive, and where the latter is concerned, is actually counterproductive.

I often times find myself wondering what makes religion such a touchy subject, one that has to be tiptoed around with placations and platitudes, rather than just the outright statement of opinion. I'm certainly not one of the more moderate atheists on the forum, I definitely have more militant leanings in that regard, and I'm fairly certain that they'll have rubbed some people the wrong way, but it isn't without a point. Treating religion like something we can't talk openly and honestly about, even if that honesty involves a lack of respect for the very concept of god(s), isn't something that should be prevented because people on either side of the fence are sensitive as to the subject matter.

That is not what I mean at all. Religion, like anything else, ought to be discussed openly and honestly. But I don't think that requires one to figuratively spit in the face of someone with whom one disagrees.

I think a "lack of respect for the very concept of god(s)." is problematic in itself. That implies more than a profound disagreement with that concept and a rejection of it; it necessarily implies disrespect for those who hold such views, and I think that is completely and totally unacceptable, in all times and places. Period, full stop.

In my experience (and I have a lot of it) debates are rarely civil, cordial affairs. And I mean 'actual' debates here, with judges and sides and time limits and evidence and all that stuff. There's heckling and sneering and open mockery the whole way through. It's to be expected.

Not in any debate I ever judged or participated in. That sort of thing routinely got forcefully suppressed with a big, heavy hammer, and was invariably noted as being neither probative nor relevant.

Of course, that was in earlier and more civil age. The fact that the current political climate has degenerated into little more than stereotype, personal smear and partisan polemic on both sides doesn't mean it has to infect us here.

This is a lot less formatted and structured, but there's no way there's going to be 'none' of that. I said this elsewhere, and I think it honestly bears repeating; They're just words. If you don't like how they're presented, it's pretty easy to scroll past them and write-off the author as a moron (or just drunk at the time) in doing so.

Sorry, I disagree. Letting unacceptable and rude behavior pass without note or comment is tantamount to condoning and encouraging it, and as it grows more prevalent, we will soon find ourselves scrolling past everything and posting nothing at all.

That said, I think Otseng's suggestion is apt; rather than commenting directly, it might be best to simply report posts that one finds objectionable and leave it at that. I, for one, intend to begin doing that much more frequently, and for posts wherein the contempt and disrespect is less explicit but still palpable.

[C-Nub]

I think a "lack of respect for the very concept of god(s)." is problematic in itself. That implies more than a profound disagreement with that concept and a rejection of it; it necessarily implies disrespect for those who hold such views, and I think that is completely and totally unacceptable, in all times and places. Period, full stop.

I respectfully (or I guess not so respectfully) disagree. The Heaven's Gate cult, for example, committed mass-suicide (and probably some murder) in order to join a spaceship hiding behind a comet or the moon or something. That was a stupid belief and I for one cannot bring myself to discuss or think of it with respect, nor do I feel I should.

The belief that when you die, your consciousness transcends to another plateau and you are eternally pleasured / tortured depending on what you did and believed in life is, as far as I'm concerned, equally as stupid and unsupported. The fact that a significantly larger group of people have chosen to believe this nonesense has nothing to do with how I feel about the conclusion they have drawn. They aren't idiots because of it, nor are they any better or worse off as people because of one opinion they hold, but I do not feel that I, having examined to my satisfaction the 'theory' of God should pretend I view the concept with anything less than the general contempt than I actually do. It is unsupported foolishness, and I'm a little bit ashamed that we as a species haven't moved past this magical explanation for the universe. I'm certainly not advocating contempt, nor am I suggesting that I'm right or wrong for holding the opinion, I'm stating it's my opinion, and am more than willing to support it to anyone that questions it.

[Word_Swordsman]

Before joining this site I spent a few weeks reading threads in deciding whether I should get involved. As I read through I noted a heavy persecution of Christians by atheists and Jews. Upon that discovery I decided to jump in. Now that those oppressors have their former estate upset they complain. Why were the Christians left to the whims of their enemies so long and without remedy? It appears to me the bullies in the schoolyard have become a bit threatened through advancement of knowledge they are not used to.

[Fisherking]

I've think I've finally had my fill too. There are those that have the totally opposite view I have that have never needed to insult or make things personal in the debate (Furrowed Brow - McCulloch come to mind right away-I'm sure I could think of more). The rest of the opposition have to insult, belittle, or make things personal, which in my opinion shows a weak position. I've learned alot -- about myself, my faith, and various topics I have either read or debated... but in my opinion, alot of the silliness going on is a waste of time.

[cnorman18]

I think a "lack of respect for the very concept of god(s)." is problematic in itself. That implies more than a profound disagreement with that concept and a rejection of it; it necessarily implies disrespect for those who hold such views, and I think that is completely and totally unacceptable, in all times and places. Period, full stop.

I respectfully (or I guess not so respectfully) disagree. The Heaven's Gate cult, for example, committed mass-suicide (and probably some murder) in order to join a spaceship hiding behind a comet or the moon or something. That was a stupid belief and I for one cannot bring myself to discuss or think of it with respect, nor do I feel I should.

I quite agree; but that was not my point. If one had had the opportunity to try to persuade one of those people of the frank madness of those beliefs, would one have been more likely to be successful by saying, "That's a load of crap and you are a drooling moron for believing it," or, "I understand that you sincerely believe this, but can we talk about it for a bit?"

I said that disrespect for a belief implies disrespect for those who hold it, and that is unavoidably true; but the latter had best be suppressed if any dialogue is going to happen. Vitriol is not persuasive, and I would presume you are not here just to express contempt for views that you despise, but to try to change them. That may not be possible--fanatics can rarely be persuaded--but I don't think it's a good idea to make that problem even worse by hostility which tends to increase resistance.

The belief that when you die, your consciousness transcends to another plateau and you are eternally pleasured / tortured depending on what you did and believed in life is, as far as I'm concerned, equally as stupid and unsupported. The fact that a significantly larger group of people have chosen to believe this nonsense has nothing to do with how I feel about the conclusion they have drawn. They aren't idiots because of it, nor are they any better or worse off as people because of one opinion they hold, but I do not feel that I, having examined to my satisfaction the 'theory' of God should pretend I view the concept with anything less than the general contempt than I actually do. It is unsupported foolishness, and I'm a little bit ashamed that we as a species haven't moved past this magical explanation for the universe. I'm certainly not advocating contempt, nor am I suggesting that I'm right or wrong for holding the opinion, I'm stating it's my opinion, and am more than willing to support it to anyone that questions it.

Again, it is perfectly acceptable to hold that a view or a position is false or even injurious and pernicious. It is quite another to express that idea in terms of personal disrespect or contempt for the person who holds it, if only to show others who are watching the debate that your views are based on logic and not on personal animosity, prejudice, or stereotype.

[Beto]

I think a "lack of respect for the very concept of god(s)." is problematic in itself. That implies more than a profound disagreement with that concept and a rejection of it; it necessarily implies disrespect for those who hold such views, and I think that is completely and totally unacceptable, in all times and places. Period, full stop.

Not all concepts of god(s) warrant the same measure of respect. The thing of the matter is, the more respect a concept of god is entitled to, the more likely it is the result of an admittedly personal, subjective, and inherently undebatable experience. I have a great measure of respect for your specific belief as you defend it, but I find it's not really open to debate. Many others pretend their concepts are open to debate but then fail to understand what "open to debate" means. If a belief system aims to be respected in debate, it must earn that respect by actually being liable to refutation. That simply isn't a possibility for fundamentalist theists, and neither they, nor their god concepts, earn any respect from me.