Debating for beginners (and others)

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Zzyzx
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Debating for beginners (and others)

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
All of us were beginners at some point. Some have gotten past the most obvious stumbling blocks; others have become frustrated and left; still others seem unable to learn how to be effective in debate – but keep slugging away anyway, being foolish (and entertaining others).

Here are a few things I have learned that might be useful to others.

1. BE HONEST. If your position is valid there is nothing to be gained by dishonesty or dishonor (or disreputable debate tactics). If your position is invalid you may think a con-job will help but it will not do so in the long run – and you will likely join the ranks of those who leave the forum in disgrace after being exposed.

2. Learn to use forum functions such as "quote" and "edit". A tutorial is available in "Members Only" sub-forum in a thread entitled " how to quote and refer to the text to which I am responding"

3. Use spell-check. Spelling errors, while not of major importance, convey an impression or attitude of sloppiness and indifference toward accuracy (which is often foretelling). I personally prefer to compose posts in a Word document rather than in forum reply boxes. That avoids the possibility of Internet or forum glitches "losing" my work, and it makes spell-check convenient (actually ongoing "as you type" as my machine is configured).

4. Learn the "rules of logic" and do NOT make obvious blunders such as "circular reasoning", non-sequiturs , false or faulty analogies, appealing to emotions, incomplete evidence, unsupported assertion, prejudices or stereotypes, argument of popularity, etc. An excellent source or starting point is http://www.tektonics.org/guest/fallacies.html

5. Do NOT use questionable debate tactics such as ad hominems, ducking questions, straw man arguments, feigned ignorance, feigned knowledge, special pleading, etc. Some of these are also errors in logic. They identify an argument as questionable, weak and/or defective.

6. DEBATE do not preach (this applies to any "ism"). In debate ideas are challenged, supported, defended, countered, and critiqued. Critical examination and comment is expected. No one has any right to claim absolute truth or understanding. Your point of view is NOT superior by virtue of your convictions.

7. Learn about the topic. Even if you feel rather competent in the area of discussion it pays to do some research. Internet search engines are a powerful tool for anyone who learns to use them effectively and efficiently. You might even accidentally learn something.

8. Learn about opposition debaters. A great deal of information is readily available about some members. Some are chosen by Admin as subjects for "Member Spotlight" in General Chat. Other information is available in the person's previous posts and ongoing debates. CHECK and ASK. What you don't know WILL hurt you.

9. Do NOT assume that you are right or that you are the better debater. You may discover that you are wrong on both counts. Overestimating yourself and your position while underestimating opposition people and positions is a recipe for disaster. People who make that mistake frequently are usually known as has-beens – no longer active.

10. If you are a Theist do not assume that your beliefs or worship practices make you superior in any way. That may seem true in church but it is decidedly not true in debate. You occupy no moral high ground. You are not "better" than others who worship different gods in different ways – or those who worship no gods – REGARDLESS of what your preacher may have told you.

11. If you are a Theist learn the meaning of the terms "Atheist", "Agnostic", "Anti-Theist", "Non-Christian", "Anti-Christian", "Non-Theist", and "Ignostic". Notice that some members positing here are not inclined to believe in gods but are not particularly opposed. Some oppose specific practices or policies of organized religion. Some are adamantly opposed to all forms of god worship. Learn the difference as applied to the people you attempt to debate. It DOES make a difference.

12. If you are a theist do NOT assume that you know more about religious literature and dogma than your opponents. Many Non-Theistic members are much better informed about the bible and Christianity than any Christians I have debated.

13. If you are a Non-Theist do not assume that Theists are "all alike" and "all stupid" (or variations thereof). There are some very intelligent and capable theistic members who are more than able to "hand you your head". Many of the most respected theistic members are NOT "traditionalists" who subscribe to mainline organized religious sects. Learn the interesting variations that are represented in "thinking theism".

14. If you are a Non-Theist do not assume that theism is represented by Fanatical Fundamentalists (or "Conservatives" or "Real Christians") who seem overly vocal in debate forums. It is suggested that liberal or moderate Christians are not motivated to attempt to promote or defend their beliefs in Internet debate while the more fanatical seem compelled to do so.

15. It is NOT wise to assume that you know an opponent's position. ASK. Unless you are quite well informed about your opponent, you have no idea who you are talking to. Several members are Ex-Christians, some are Ex-Christian Ministers, some are attorneys, teachers, and construction superintendents. At least one is a retired professor of Comparative Religion. Many are seasoned debaters.

16. Do not make statements that you cannot support. This is debate – not preaching. You WILL be challenged. Be prepared to cite evidence to support what you say. If you cannot defend a statement WITHDRAW it gracefully.

17. Read EXACTLY what a person says before trying to rebut or respond. Do not "read into" what they say and do not assume that they mean what you think at first glance. It is particularly important to read carefully anything that touches "tender places" in your psyche or your belief system.

18. Remember that ALL you have in Internet debate is CREDIBILITY which is based upon 1) Respect from fellow debaters, 2) Consistency of position, 3) Accuracy of statements, and 4) Skill in presenting ideas and answering challenges.

19. Your arguments, no matter how powerful, are unlikely to make instant changes in anyone's position (though that can happen with a frequency that approaches winning a lottery). Instead, presenting consistent ideas in reasoned and effective ways is likely to change attitudes (if not positions) over time.

20. Learn from fellow debaters. Learn techniques of debate as well as learning about ideas being discussed. You don't know it all (no matter what you may think).

21. Leave your emotions out of the debate. Becoming emotional reduces one's ability to accurately assess the "terrain" and to reply to "moves" by other parties to the discussion. Some debaters deliberately provoke emotional response by "pushing buttons" to encourage their opposition to become emotional or irrational. Keeping a foot out of that trap is just as important as avoiding one's own "trap" of "leading with your emotions" (and stumbling over hurdles placed by the opposition).

22. Answer legitimate questions. You WILL encounter questions and challenges that are uncomfortable or difficult to address. It may seem appealing to take the weak way out and simply duck and dodge or disappear from the discussion; however, doing so is transparent. Your credibility will suffer.

23. Acknowledge mistakes and withdraw incorrect or inappropriate statements. You are not infallible. Everyone else knows you are not – don't be the only one unaware.

24. Nothing goes unnoticed. This is true in life as well as in debate. What one might think they snuck by unobserved quite often "comes back around and slaps them in the head". Even if no one else mentions things YOU know, and the negative effects on self-image are not worth the gain.

25. Be aware that many people visit this forum every day and that threads are available indefinitely. Many threads are visited hundreds or thousands of times. Your words have the potential to reach those people – with either positive or negative effect (or none at all). It is not wise to assume that readers are stupid or easily influenced.

26. What you write may be far more important to people OTHER than the one(s) to whom you address comments. What is said in threads IS read and considered by readers / visitors – not just debaters. Many read without posting.

27. Don't whine or expect special treatment. Do not claim to be disfavored by moderators. This forum is extremely fairly moderated. It is owned and administered by a Christian and moderated by an even mix of theists and non-theists. The playing field is as level as one is likely to find. DO NOT ARGUE with moderators in threads. If you have any comments to them send a PM.

28. Don't make excuses. If your arguments don't hold water and if you are not respected by fellow debaters look for holes in your presentation and your attitude – not defects in fellow members (or planetary alignment).

29. This list is not intended to be exhaustive.

30. Feel free to ignore all of the above. We need a few examples of "Mr. Before".
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Skyler
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Post #31

Post by Skyler »

Beto wrote:
Skyler wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:No one has any right to claim absolute truth or understanding.
Is that statement absolutely true?
No one should presume it's true to you. It's true concerning debate, by definition, and this thread is about "debating for beginners". Debating-wise, the claim is absolutely true.
P1. No one can claim absolute truth in a debate.
P2. The rules of the debate are being debated.
T. Therefore, no one can claim absolute truth as to the rules of the debate.

Are they up for debate?

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Post #32

Post by McCulloch »

Skyler wrote:Are [the rules of the debate] up for debate?
Certainly. But the purpose of this site is not to re-invent the wheel or to debate debating. Rules of debate have been set and occasionally modified and interpreted, based on principles of debate hammered out by centuries of human interaction. If there are any suggestions as to how we should improve our own particular version of the rules of debate, you may post them in the Comments, Suggestions, and Questions section. This particular discussion thread was not intended to be a debate but suggestions for people who wish to debate effectively from debaters here who have had some experience and success.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Skyler
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Post #33

Post by Skyler »

McCulloch wrote:
Skyler wrote:Are [the rules of the debate] up for debate?
Certainly. But the purpose of this site is not to re-invent the wheel or to debate debating. Rules of debate have been set and occasionally modified and interpreted, based on principles of debate hammered out by centuries of human interaction. If there are any suggestions as to how we should improve our own particular version of the rules of debate, you may post them in the Comments, Suggestions, and Questions section. This particular discussion thread was not intended to be a debate but suggestions for people who wish to debate effectively from debaters here who have had some experience and success.
So Zzyzx's rules of debate are not universally applicable, then, just applicable for this forum?

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Post #34

Post by McCulloch »

Skyler wrote:So Zzyzx's rules of debate are not universally applicable, then, just applicable for this forum?
Zzyzx is not an admin or a moderator on this site. He has not the authority to make rules for this site.

Is there a point or any matter of significance you wish to make clear?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Skyler
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Post #35

Post by Skyler »

McCulloch wrote:
Skyler wrote:So Zzyzx's rules of debate are not universally applicable, then, just applicable for this forum?
Zzyzx is not an admin or a moderator on this site. He has not the authority to make rules for this site.

Is there a point or any matter of significance you wish to make clear?
Now I'm really confused. So we're not required to hold to those rules?

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Post #36

Post by McCulloch »

Skyler wrote:Now I'm really confused. So we're not required to hold to those rules?
This is simply a discussion.

The Rules are on a link at the top of each page.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

cnorman18

Re: Debating for beginners (and others)

Post #37

Post by cnorman18 »

I think Skyler is amusing himself by indulging in an activity one might call "deliberate and willful obtuseness."

Aka "being a pain in the butt for fun."

The rules are clear enough. If Skyler has a specific and coherent suggestion on how they might be changed, let him post it on the appropriate forum. This obstinate quibbling is growing tiresome and annoying.

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Skyler
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Re: Debating for beginners (and others)

Post #38

Post by Skyler »

cnorman18 wrote:I think Skyler is amusing himself by indulging in an activity one might call "deliberate and willful obtuseness."

Aka "being a pain in the butt for fun."

The rules are clear enough. If Skyler has a specific and coherent suggestion on how they might be changed, let him post it on the appropriate forum. This obstinate quibbling is growing tiresome and annoying.
I was making a suggestion as to how to modify Zzyzx's recommendations to render them technically correct. Rather than accept it, however, some members of the forum felt it was their duty to stand up against the big, bad theist and oppose him at all costs.

I will repeat my suggestion: Rephrase point 6 as follows:
6. DEBATE do not preach (this applies to any "ism"). In debate ideas are challenged, supported, defended, countered, and critiqued. Critical examination and comment is expected. No matter how deeply held a given point, that fact alone is not proof.

Beto

Re: Debating for beginners (and others)

Post #39

Post by Beto »

Skyler wrote:I was making a suggestion as to how to modify Zzyzx's recommendations to render them technically correct.
You failed to demonstrate they are technically incorrect.
Skyler wrote:Rather than accept it, however, some members of the forum felt it was their duty to stand up against the big, bad theist and oppose him at all costs.
As far as "big" goes, you flatter yourself.
Skyler wrote:I will repeat my suggestion: Rephrase point 6 as follows:
6. DEBATE do not preach (this applies to any "ism"). In debate ideas are challenged, supported, defended, countered, and critiqued. Critical examination and comment is expected. No matter how deeply held a given point, that fact alone is not proof.
Your suggestion was rejected. Are you incapable of dealing with that?

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Skyler
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Re: Debating for beginners (and others)

Post #40

Post by Skyler »

Beto wrote:
Skyler wrote:I was making a suggestion as to how to modify Zzyzx's recommendations to render them technically correct.
You failed to demonstrate they are technically incorrect.
I demonstrated. You denounced my demonstration as "silly" without providing your reasoning behind that conclusion.
Skyler wrote:Rather than accept it, however, some members of the forum felt it was their duty to stand up against the big, bad theist and oppose him at all costs.
As far as "big" goes, you flatter yourself.
I wondered about that. :P
Skyler wrote:I will repeat my suggestion: Rephrase point 6 as follows:
6. DEBATE do not preach (this applies to any "ism"). In debate ideas are challenged, supported, defended, countered, and critiqued. Critical examination and comment is expected. No matter how deeply held a given point, that fact alone is not proof.
Your suggestion was rejected. Are you incapable of dealing with that?
I can. My arguments stand in this thread for an observant reader to find. I'll drop the issue with this post and leave off trying to teach logic to non-theists.

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