Musing On The Mystic

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

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Musing On The Mystic

Post #1

Post by William »

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William: You said you think my curiosity and question is tangential to a discussion on the historicity of the Resurrection and would be better served with its own thread. So here we are...nice to see you back at the Fireside My Friend.

Smiling, I reach for a log and place it on the fire. I sip on my brew and then continue.

William: As I explained earlier, since Jesus was an Eternal Spirit, he couldn't actually die, so it had to be the appearance of dying.

Jason: This was part of why I moved your theory out from explanation (2) in step C and gave it the number (10). The typical “apparent death” theory claims that Jesus’ body only appeared to die. You seem to be saying the body did die, but Jesus, as an Eternal Spirit, didn’t. That point alone doesn’t distinguish you from my theory but other things obviously do, which we’ll get to.

I ponder Jason's explanation for a few minutes and then reply.

William: Yes - taken on the premise that all the bible stories are true in relation to the authors data of experience and subsequent points of view, Jesus Human body did die. The explanation for why and how it was made livable again, involves mysticism.

I take another sip of brew and restate something I said earlier.

William: You equated my understanding, to Jesus lying. I explained that Jesus was simply going along with the beliefs of his followers at the time, because his agenda was focused on his overall mission and that it was not a case of lying but of not being able to tell the whole truth because of the belief systems in his followers which prevented them from being able to handle the whole truth.

Jason: First, that was when I thought you were claiming the body didn’t die. But it would still apply to your theory if you think Jesus used a new body and allowed his disciples to believe he resurrected into his previous body. Not correcting a lie is different than not telling the whole truth.

On top of that, I don’t see any benefit in Jesus doing this. The disciples’ belief system was already being blown up by his resurrection. This kind of gnostic ideas already seemed to be around and gained in popularity in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Plus, the Christian movement was committed to the teachings of Jesus to the point that they rejected these gnostic ideas as heresy. Jesus lying about his resurrection seems to be working against what you say his mission was.


Te Ruru sounds off from the nearby trees. Always a signal that things are about to get even more interesting.

William: People are often enough frightened by their imaginations.
I know that seems a random thing for me to say. I say it now though, so that I can refer back to it as examples offer themselves that opportunity for me to do so.

We do not know to what extent Jesus made efforts to correct the beliefs which allowed the followers to lie [to their individual selves through their belief systems] but we do know that there is evidence that he may have done just that...but it is not evidence we can find just by reading the bible.

No two followers reacted to the resurrection event in the same manner. Jesus is dealing with individuals.

As to the Gnostic ideas, I became aware of these much later on into my conversion from the mundane into the mystic - and that process of approach was not viewed by me as "mystical", until many years later, and in that - upon reading some of the Gnostic ideas, I realized that there was some truth to be gained therein because my own experience confirmed that already.

So then, once I embarked upon a more detail study of the evolution of the Christian Church, I had to ask the question as to why that institution chose - not only to exclude the Gnostic information from the authorized version of the truth that institution wanted the world to have - but to make efforts to completely suppress the Gnostic ideas as heretical, and on occasion use that law to legally imprison and murder anyone suspected of being heretic.

So I keep the question "Is this what Jesus wanted his Church to do?" and thus, I commune with Christians in order to possibly uncover the answer.


The fire cracks loudly and a pebble-sized piece of the log I had placed on it jumps out and lands near my feet. I observe how blue the flame appears, and realize it is no ordinary flame...I reach down and pick it up, and it is cold to my touch, as I knew it would be.

William: One thing that I find very interesting in regard to that, is how Gnosticism has survived the 20-odd centuries of active suppression, and its secrets have continued to be shared.

Jason: I need to make sure I understand what you are claiming in your theory. You seem to be saying that Jesus’ body died and then Jesus’ post-mortem appearances were through a different body. Is that correct?

I think I have responded to you on the proposed absurdities that would follow there and you haven’t directly responded back on those points. I will make my positive case after making sure I'm understanding your theory correctly.


As Jason finishes his sentence, a whisper of cool air circulates briefly through the encampment and the small blue flame rises from object I hold. I laugh.

William: I argue that another body might have been used, which explains the seeming confusion his followers had - depending upon which story one reads about the event - in relation to them not recognizing the form.
Certainly, it did not take too long for them to recognize the Spirit using the form, was that of the one they had followed throughout all those months.


I rise and move toward The Whole. I slide back the stone covering it, and place the object with the blue flame, into it. I replace the stone and then return to my seat at the Fireside.

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #2

Post by The Tanager »

Jason: Good to be welcomed back, Friend. It is such a lovely, cool night.

I agree that Jesus is dealing with individuals who react in their individuality. First, I don’t see how that would be any kind of evidence that Jesus allowed people to lie to themselves (although I do think Jesus allows people to lie to themselves). Second, and more importantly, I don’t see how that would be any kind of evidence that Jesus refused to attempt to correct His disciples’ mistaken beliefs. Jesus constantly confronted what He saw as mistaken beliefs.

As to the Christian interaction with Gnosticism, in my own detailed studies, I think many Christians excluded teachings they believed were historically not from Jesus based on the date of the writings, how it contradicted other better attested early teachings, and things like that. They saw Gnostic teachings as lessening the true power and identity of God, seeing them as twisting Jesus’ words and life to fit their agenda.

There are always at least two extremes to avoid, though. Other Christians lessen the true power and identity of God through their quest for power and control. They fear other beliefs, as though Truth fears falsehoods. Instead they fear losing their control and power over others. This extreme combined with political power led to great atrocities and still does.

So, the question of what Jesus would want His Church to do is not just one question.

As to the post-mortem body, I don’t think this makes the best sense of the confusion. For other appearances don’t have the confusion, even pointing to the actual wounds the pre-mortem body experienced. A new body makes sense of one side of things and contradicts the other. While the same body makes sense of both sides when coupled with other possible reasons Jesus’ body may have been confused (a lack of detailed awareness due to one’s emotional state, a distance, needed time to get a teaching across before the disciples got all emotional, etc.).

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #3

Post by William »

Jason begins by commenting on how good it is to be welcomed back at The Fireside. The familiar - even in imaginary settings - is always positive, if the overall memory of it as a place one can go to experience that positive, is given legitimacy.

William: We left on good enough terms last time, so the Welcome is sincere for that, my friend.

You don't see how that in allowing those of his followers who saw things that way, would be any kind of evidence that Jesus allowed people to lie to themselves even that you think Jesus does allow people to lie to themselves?
What harm in allowing those of his followers who were not then aware of the Mysticism Jesus was intimately involved with?

Of course Jesus constantly confronted what He saw as mistaken beliefs. This in itself does not mean that by doing so, matters were cleared up for those he was constantly correcting.
Given the evidence that these folk had been following him and listening to him while he categorically stated his intention, and gave constant information to do with that which only Mystics know - even after all that, his followers scattered when the going got rough.
Obviously telling them what he did, didn't get through into the core of their being, thus they did not understand other than through hind-site - probably some time well after they lost sight of him as the clouds obscured their vision.

We are talking about followers who were simple folk picked from the working class. From those humble beginnings arose The Church.

Strangely enough, the Gnostics have a similar tale to tell of The Church as the tale The Church tells of Gnostics... They saw Christian teachings as lessening the true power and identity of God, seeing them as twisting Jesus’ words and life to fit their agenda.

The underlying Gnostic view is that the image of The Creator presented by The Church, is 'Satan' - as in - an imposter god who has been fooling humans - first through the Jews and then through the Gentiles.


I pause and take a sip of brew. The warmth of the fire on the front coupled with the coolness of the night air on the back reminding me of how duality works within a field of Oneness.

William: Folk have difficulty seeing through the awareness of Oneness, and this impacts upon how they might receive any information.
As mentioned, I became aware of the Gnostic ideas much later on into my conversion from the mundane into the mystic and I realized that there was some truth to be gained therein because my own experience confirmed that already.

For a time, I went through a stage of thinking that the Old Testament image of The Creator, was an imposter - 'Satan himself' in his clever diabolical way [as The Church images him] was the god of the bible, and Christianity followed Satan while believing the are following The Creator.

Some reasons for going through that stage where;

That "The Father" biblical Jesus presents us with does not appear to be the same character the Old Testament God is presented as being. There are crossovers of course, as should be expected...but there appeared to me to be too many differences between the presentations for these to being the same Entity.

I have a different understanding now - and that understanding literally took decades for me to integrate into my view.


Sure, there are extremes to avoid. Quest for power and control and fear of other beliefs, is something of how the OTGod operated through His chosen ones. This extreme, always leads to great atrocities. Whether it is of 'God' or "Satan', makes no obvious difference.

The question of what Jesus would want His Church to do, is rhetorical.


I reach for a log and place it on the fire.

William: While the same body does make more sense of both sides when coupled with other possible reasons Jesus’ body may have been confused as you say - a lack of detailed awareness due to one’s emotional state, a distance, needed time to get a teaching across before the disciples got all emotional, these in themselves are aspects of a story which the authors themselves - assuming they are the same ones who actually experienced what is written, had to have been written by them, with that in mind.

In other words, the authors were writing as those who had since entered into the Mystery by becoming Mystics themselves, and therefore were reporting on the nature of something they once were - at the time the events took place.

Therefore they should have by then realized that the combination of emotionally charged ignorance and other stuff, had blinded them to seeing Jesus, as Jesus had always presented himself.

Therefore they would know, that eventually those who read their words would have to come to the same conclusion in order to enter The Mystery - thus why the question of what Jesus would want His Church to do is a rhetorical one.


I stand and stretch, then reach into my robe and retrieve a small card with a Symbol on it, and hold in up so that Jason can see.
Image
William: Understanding this Symbol is where it begins...and by "it" I mean, where ones Journey into The Mystery, begins.

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #4

Post by The Tanager »

Jason: It’s not just some of Jesus’ disciples, all of them preached a risen Jesus and not the mysticism you speak of. Not making sure they are on the right track and then allowing them to spread that incorrect message seems very harmful to them and those whom they taught. The mysticism you speak of came in the second century, not from the immediate followers of Jesus or even the first few generations of disciples. Of course, the Gnostics saw the Church as being wrong and twisting things. Every worldview does this of the other; it’s only logical.

Now, if Jesus taught the mysticism you speak of and they just weren’t getting it, that’s a different story. But that is a story that has no evidence going for it, as far as I can tell. I’d be interested in seeing that evidence. That the writers of the Bible were becoming Mystics and simply reporting what they used to believe without correcting or adding their new beliefs makes no sense to me. No, they would speak of what they now believed to be true, even if those past teachings were a first step.

Regardless of whether Jesus taught the mysticism you speak of, that, in itself, doesn’t mean the mysticism would be false. So, if you don’t think there is evidence to show me that Jesus taught this mysticism or are more interested in the truth of what you think Jesus taught, then let’s just talk about mysticism. Tell me about this symbol.


I point to the aleph on William’s card.

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #5

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #4]

William: Yes I hear what you are saying and empathize with your concerns.

If the authors knew about mysticism, and were simply relating their initial [pre-mystic] natures, there should be clues in those writings which show us this could be what happened.

Somehow they penetrated the Roman rule, which eventually allowed for Christianity to form out from that.

That was part of Jesus' mission and he warned his followers that should they partake in that mission and support it, they [more than likely] would have to make the ultimate sacrifice, which of course The Church mythology tells us, is what many of them had to go through.

That is why they were selected from the social class they were of - because such folk will die for what they believe in, almost instinctively.

Mysticism itself predates Christianity and was part of the secret sects devices, hidden even at that time, because of Judaism having long since formalized into a religion involved in suppressing Mysticism - something Jesus told his followers would also happen with their stuff too.

So they knew.

This is why Christianity became what it did. Right from the start, for the followers to get a foot in the door of the Roman Empire, they had to hide the mystic message beneath the words they could write, which would be given the thumbs up by the authorities.

Mysticism has never gone away, and can never go away. Sometime it hides in order to make sure it never goes away. But it is only hiding from that which wants it to go away.


I take a couple of sips of brew...as I contemplate on how best to answer Jason's question about Aleph.

William: The Aleph is one way in which the Mystics of Judah preserved the mystery - That and the 21 other Hebrew Symbols of the language.

With Aleph the symbol means Innocence to do with Beginnings. The Hebrew for the word Beginnings is;

I send the Hebrew word symbols to Jason's tablet.

התחלות

William: From right to left, the base meaning of each symbol is as follows.

Divine Sound - Bridge Between Worlds - Restoration - Learning to Align - Power to unite the separate - Bridge Between Worlds

William: So therein the base meanings altogether give something of a picture of process involved with the deeper meaning of Beginnings.

The same application is done with the word "Innocence"


Again, I send Jason the Hebrew word.
חפות מפשע

Divine Sound - Mouth/Speech - Power to unite the separate - Bridge Between Worlds - Water/ Wisdom - Mouth/Speech - Transformation - Eye /vision /reveal.

William: So looking at those groups of symbols, one would be hard pressed to understand what they represent as a word, simply by trying to identify the symbols which are used and coming to a correct conclusion, because what do those base meanings have to do with either Beginnings or Innocence?

English translates Beginnings as;
• the point in time or space at which something begins.
• the first part or earliest stage of something.
• the background or origins of a person or organization.

Doing the same for the word Innocence ;
•the state, quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence.
•lack of guile or corruption; purity.


William: When we read English, we tend to place the interpretation on a word which best empathizes our individuate personalities life-view.

In that we could lean toward the idea that the word "Innocence" refers to gullibility, or towards interpreting it as "Not wanting to know things which might threaten that state".

Hebrew interprets it as a process and looks into the intrinsic nature of collective states of being and thus, the meaning is more complex than simply 'this' or 'that'.

In view of both gullibility and not wanting to know with the addition of the mention of
Divine Sound - Mouth/Speech - Power to unite the separate - Bridge Between Worlds - Water/ Wisdom - Mouth/Speech - Transformation - Eye /vision /reveal, we have a process by which we can form a balance which allows one not to be so gullible, but also potentially able to know of all things.

This is why the authors of biblical Jesus include the point of learning to be as innocent as doves and as wise/clever/cunning as serpents - a curious word to use given the Serpent is regarded as the enemy of God by what Christianity has taught/brought into the world. [Matthew 10:16]

The idea behind that has to do with what the individual personality does with the knowledge, as to weather it affects their innocence and they lose it by being guilty through what they do.

Thus, to remain in innocence while gathering knowledge, one has to reveal what Divine Sound is, and how this then relates to - Mouth/Speech - and from there, how to use the Power to unite the separate and why this relates to the connection or Bridge Between the immaterial and the material Worlds and how this relates to information [potential knowledge] flowing like Water/ and in that circumstance, provides Wisdom, which in turn is passed on by word of Mouth/Speech [Script] causing a Transformation of how one views the world through Eye /vision and therein what is revealed. [In the eye of one's understanding.]

So we have the more intricate meaning to the word "Innocence" through the Hebrew understanding of it - and this is what is meant by innocence as a process which takes the individual from being in the state of ignorance to being in the state of innocence.

The same can be done with the word Beginnings, for this where the momentum of life is sourced.

And thus, we have a more comprehensive understanding as to what the symbol for Aleph represents, to answer your question about Aleph.

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #6

Post by The Tanager »

Jason:Thank you for sharing that. I would not be surprised that these Mystics of Judah created a coherent system. Coherence alone isn’t a provider of truth. Are there reasons you can share that should cause me to trust this system as speaking truth? Or is it more of a just try it out with a skeptical but open mind and see for yourself kind of invitation? I’m fine with either.

If it is the latter, then I would love to take one step at a time. What is Divine Sound?

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #7

Post by William »

William: Yes, it might well be that a coherent system was created by the early Mystics of Judah. Which of course would mean that the entire Old Testament would be come suspect, which in turn would mean that Christianity would also fall under suspicion, because it bases it's own relevance inclusive of OT script.

Obviously if such effort were made by mystics to develop such coherency in their actual language, then the stories associated with Judaism must also be developed in line with that activity.

But here we are discussing Language, and your question re Divine Sound, is directly related to that.

From the Mystics perspective, The Creators Will is the source of Divine Sound and it is through this Will that apparent magic happens - in this case - something appears to have been created from nothing, through the act of The Creators Will.

We understand ourselves how we can perform such magic within our own minds - through the resource of imagination, and project that image onto the screen of our mind. Words become images therein.

This Fireside place we are currently occupied together within, is one such creation. Our interaction here is mind-to-mind, and if you remember our earlier discussions, I maintained that in the realm of the immaterial, this place is a real place, because of this interaction of imagination and the immaterial realm.

Of course, we also both know that we are active within this place, in a different way than within the material world, where we each sit within Human form and those forms are separated by thousands of miles on opposite sides of the planet.

We call this "Creation" and my understanding is that both places - the material and the immaterial are products of the mind. Our reality experience is the product of The Creators mind, and our own mind creations are products of our own creativity expressed as micro-minds which have the same capabilities [in micro] as does The Creator [in macro.]

Our thoughts are our own voice, projected back and made real through the immaterial [Spirit] world connected with the material world.

The material world is the projection of the immaterial world, and for that, is not as 'material' as we who currently exist within it, experience it to be.

It is through mysticism that we learn to understand the nature of how the material universe became, through Divine Sound, which is not The Creator having a voice box but rather by The Creator exerting [His] Will onto the screen of The Creators own Mind.

If we examine the nature of Galaxies, we can understand that these are all acting like ripple effects on a pond, and when we examine the nature of sound in relation to what we call material, we see how patterns emerge from the interaction of the sound upon the inert material we call quantum - and how similar that is to how our minds work in relation to our thoughts.

Our thoughts are frequencies which create immaterial imagery.


I send Jason some images and a short video

Cymatics.
Image

Galaxy.
Image



My study re Hebrew Language is a relatively new venture. In what I have learned so far, the Kabbalist Rabbi views of Hebrew accompanies the claim that it is the language The Creator used in order to create with, and that it is the only language which holds meaning in the individuate letters comprising the Hebrew alphabet.

I would caution against becoming fixated on symbols and language to the degree that it appears the Kabbalists have done, as they view other languages as somewhat inferior when compared.

My understanding is that English has its own interesting anomaly in that it can be sorted into coherent corresponding lists, using a simply math-code [A=6...Z=26] and I suspect other languages will also have similar things to show...point being, it is best not to limit The Creators ingenious handiwork to just one Human Language alone.


I send Jason a list of the seven other words which share the same number as "Divine Sound"

William: In English the words Divine Sound add up to 136 - and on my list, these correspond to the following;



Astral Guides
Etched mirror
Healing The Beast
Contact With
Satisfaction
Three In A Row
Small Steps

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #8

Post by William »

William: Of course, the list I use is journaling my own subjective experience and so I appreciate that you would not understand the connection in the same way I do, with some of those word-strings - as a means of explaining...

I look down at the list on my tablet...

William: The words;
Astral Guides
Etched mirror
Healing The Beast
Contact With
Satisfaction
Small Steps

are all to do with my engaging with symbols on etched mirror glass which I created by being prompted by those I came into contact with through the use of the mirror glass as a communications device.
They also relate to the idea of Divine Sound, and the word divine itself can also mean to discover by intuition or insight as in "infer to divine the truth." and to discover or locate something - so science is involved.
"Healing The Beast' becomes the result [taking small steps] re Divine Sound - at least - certainly - that being the case for my particular journey...

and as to "Three In A Row" - it is not unrelated - most recently in my studies of Kabbalah, there is mention of three letter words which correspond to the intricates to do with Aleph...but the reason the phrase is on my list is that it is an instruction for me to select from my list when doing Message Generation, the line where the cursor stops [random selection] and the line before and after it.


I open the Message Generator List on my tablet and put it through the shuffle algorithm. The first word on the is "Divine Purpose", which makes me smile.
I push the "Page Down" key and then lift my finger off the button and observe where the pointer stopped.
I read out the results.


William: Okay - the word selected is "Lucifer" and the line above that is "Investigative Realization" and the line below that is "The Finer Details".

I look up from the screen and over to Jason.

William: What is happening here is science Jason - but also mysticism, for these are related disciplines. It is coherent but how does one explain random selections which are so intricately involved with the reality of the moment?

Sometimes "The Devil" is referred to as "The Beast" - or at least is associated with beastly things.

Furthermore, just today I posted this in the thread I created and named "The Doctrine of Satan".


I send Jason a copy of the post;
by William » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:55 pm

1213 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:23 pm
William wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:39 pm
...
1213: I have read the entire Bible, and I think it is not about Satan.

William: So what? Do you make it more about God? ...
Why have the gods decided that Humans have to be involved in their shenanigan's? ...


1213: Most of it seems to be about good and right, how people should live. And I believe it is for that people would know how to live well.

William: That is not all you believe though, is it? Other Christians argue that Satan is the 'problem' with the world. The Bible is where we get the idea of Angels and Demons - Heavenly rebellion - which then set the stage for the creation of the material Universe.

Biblical Jesus himself is said to have mentioned the 'Devil' on more than one occasion. Then there are those moments when demons are speaking to him through apparently possessed individuals. There is even a story about him facing off with Satan out in the desert.

As unsettling as that might be for you [?] it is undeniable the Satan as imaged in today's world, is directly the result of Christian teaching being cast into this world.

Christians talk about the Devil all the time...maybe not quite as much as they talk about God, but Satan is obviously a central character in Christian Belief Systems.

The collective biblical stories are indeed 'about Satan' because none of the other characters would be involved if it were not for Satan existing in the Mythology.


I send Jason a small looped video showing the evidence of the etched mirror glass...

Image

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #9

Post by The Tanager »

Jason: Your mysticism seems to me to leave open a lot of possibilities at every turn, the words you associate together, the exact phrases and ideas that are on your message generation lists, etc. It seems like you have chosen one interpretation of all of those connections, when to an outsider so many different paths could have been taken. Just like with Biblical interpretations, we can’t get all sorts of different interpretations. The key is whether the interpretation we pursue, whether of the Bible or anything else, is worth pursuing because it leads to truth. How do you know you are making truthful connections? How can I know these connections you are making, rather than other ones, are truthful?

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Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #10

Post by William »

William: General interpretation ... how am I to interpret what you say?
What interpretation have you heard from me in this conversation which you are associating with the possibility of untruthful interpretation?

What are the options available? You have not said so I cannot really respond meaningfully.

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