"I wonder why folk have to argue and cannot get along and just see how we all need to work together to make this planet wholesome?"
{Pokes at the fire with staff}
"We humans are like these sparks reaching for the heavenly ones. We need some kind of poke to get us activated."
{A wolf howls in the distance}
"We are all here experiencing this planet in this universe. Yet for reasons not entirely clear, we are distracted by our arguments. Hindered by them, even to the death."
{Places another branch on the fire.}
"Perhaps the fear of our situation would be too much to bear if we learned how to focus upon it, and so we distract ourselves..."
Last edited by William on Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Callum identifies one main difference in our theologies, which spirals back to the Fallen Angel song...it is as I have been saying all along.
Manu Iti: I would say that 'The Problem of Evil' is where we differ Callum. Not so much in what we might agree regarding identifying evil, but in how we deal with it, in relation to the idea of a Creator.
The Ruru: Cymatics
Manu Iti: We might agree that the three stages of this process are;
1: The Beginning
2: The Middle
3: The End.
The omnipresent nature of The Mother allows for her to be in all those places - slash - times, at once and eternally. And those places are specific to our particular parts in the unfolding event.
Your argument requires that there is a separation between Creator and creation, especially in regard to the evil problem, otherwise the creator becomes - stained - by the guilt of association.
To invent the way around the problem, you have to have The Creator creating that which does evil - from out of nothing, rather than from of Herself, otherwise "Guilty as charged your honor!" aka "The Need to Judge".
I chuckle while Unicus nickers and The Ruru gives a hoot.
The Ruru: The Law Timelessness vs infinite regress argument Doc
Presently the Big Bang speaks to a beginning and thus, one cannot really assume there is no need to explain that. Presuming there is no need to explain that, is not the same as presuming that an eternal being who had no beginning, created the universe, as an explanation. See?
Please It Would Be Rude Not to God/Source/Home A Place To Create Art
Manu Iti: Your argument, with the addition of having to defend "nothing" as logical in order to try and fix the evil problem, stems from one aspect of the process...that being the Middle.
My argument does not require the addition of "Nothing" so there is only need to incorporate "Everything" as the logical premise to work from, in relation to All-Knowing.
The Ruru: Help In The Background Cleaning Up The Mess
Manu Iti: This answers the question as to "Why Forgiveness" becomes necessary...as it is the Middle which has the evil problem, not the beginning nor the end.
Since there are those in the middle who experience feelings of separation and hurt, the idea of being created, adds to the necessity to forgive that which created.
The Ruru: A Sturdy Place
Manu Iti: In doing so, one is enabled to better grasp the understanding of the Beginning and the end and the necessity of the middle - problems and all.
The Ruru: Love Takes One For The Team
Manu Iti: The Mother - of course - understands the evil problem and that is why we also have knowledge of the solution. Making the Creator a separate and non responsible entity only increases the separation and affords no means in which to "build a bridge and get over it." It is a tough ask over a scary chasm.
The Ruru: Honest.
Manu Iti: The evil problem is essentially The Mother in the Middle section responding to the negative feelings of loss and ignorance, and in that, is forgivable...only that is part of the process which becomes more apparent for its importance toward the End.
How forgiveness works in helping, is that one - the Individual - can learn to understand that even while being involved in the process smack dab in the Middle... simply knowing that - ultimately - all things work together for the Good...
The Ruru: Milieu of Potential
Manu Iti: Effectively this means - what started out as a purely innocent and worthy act of loving thought immediately branched out into a myriad of fractal patterns as the potential moved toward the End, where the seemingly separated branches integrate into wholeness from where they originated.
The Ruru: [BE] A Bit Of A Mouthful!
I laugh at that.
Manu Iti: Having the idea of a Creator who created us from something called 'nothing to do with Her' simply so that we can enjoy the idea of that, and think of it as the only possible way we can think a creator as being Loving, is one of those fractal branches we can explore but eventually that to will reintegrate into The Wholeness as - effectively - the aspects of The Mother forgive Her for ever wanting to know what it would be like to know nothing and have the experience of a beginning as a consequence.
That process of each of us being forgiving about it all, is essentially The Mother learning to forgive Herself through that section of the process....
The Ruru: Forgive Of Your Thoughts Serendipity
Manu Iti: It also allows for the individual who goes through this process, to understand how all the dots connect seamlessly.
The Ruru: Now Shrug Why?
Manu Iti: As to our world being completely controlled by our creators and thus we are not "free beings" as you think we must be in order to be loved, this cannot actually happen any better than the illusion we have that we are free, which could only be made possible in this manner. It becomes 'besides the point' because - as The Mother, we were free to explore total ignorance and in doing so, became the unique off-spring to which we are gifted with the ability to create our own reality-experiences and have a sense of the autonomous in that.
Like the branches of a tree, we are not really separate from the tree, or from other trees...but it is a fine illusion we can have loads of fun with, without any longer contributing to the evil problem, because, we now have that knowledge.
So I am - for all intent and purpose, a real and unique Character of which no other exists, and in that, I am the same as my Creator.
When you look down at your hands and wonder if it was you who made the choice to do so, or your creator making you do so, you have a problem to work out.
So yes - it is handy that if one wishes to be good, ones idea of ones Creator need be good as well, and so we can understand if that is the case, our creator is good.
Evil really then appears as it truly is - the product of ignorance which cannot remain indefinitely because "knowledge" is inevitable. We are free to work that our in each of our own ways and means...with a little help from our friends...invisible, imagined, or otherwise...it is a real...
I take in the beauty of the world around me, as it is growing lighter. Trees, various animals, mountains in the distance, Manu Iti in front of me. I think of all Manu Iti has said. My response will not be as long. I hope Manu Iti does not think I'm ignoring much of what he has said. I'm simply trying to get to the heart. I'm not sure if I see that correctly or not.
Callum: Please correct any misunderstanding, but your case seems to be built upon the following claims:
1. Evil is a necessary feature of creation.
2. The ends justify the means. Yes, The Mother chooses evil, but because this will lead to a greater good (Mother plus Offspring) than what was originally there (Mother alone) it is okay.
If so, what is the support for these claims?
As to my view, you say that the Creator-creature distinction affords no means to build the bridge. Why do you think that? Are you saying that separation itself is an evil? If so, why?
As I hear Callum's questions I wonder if he has been able to ponder upon the various things I have presented rather than simple react in a knee-jerk fashion. Now he asks for evidence to support my assertions...
Manu Iti: Dear Callum - might I remind you that what I present is the logic based upon the evidence of something...specifically, the something which does exist.
I am still awaiting your evidence of the existence of nothing.
The Ruru: What’s The Problem? Small Re-channel.
Manu Iti: My 'case' as it were - is built upon the overall picture...those events 1, 2 and 3 combined.
Your questions and concerns come from only the Middle section, so until you are able to appreciate the whole, how will you be able to appreciate the answers and see the process is based on Love?
The Ruru: It May Seem Insignificant GOD Another Mind Open
...
I wonder at what Callum may have been through which has him focused on apparent evil...
Manu Iti: If I placed before you two glasses of water - one labelled "From the Salty Sea" and one labelled "From the Crystal Clear River" and asked you which one you would choose as the symbol for 'evil', on what basis would you choose?
The Ruru: Have One For Me...
I move over to the Whole, once again sliding the rock to one side, I reach in and find a basket of pieces of fruit. I replace the Whole cover and return to my seat, now armed with the treats, which I then proceed to hand-feed Unicus, who whinnies with delight and gratitude.
The night sky glitters...it is something I doubt I will ever tire of...
The Ruru: Timeless.
Again I am drawn to the envelopes bound with the Silver Chord. Selecting one, I open it and unfold the contents. The Image which presents itself has the words...
[font=Comic Sans MS]“There is an old illusion. It is called good and evil.� [/font]
The signature is of someone from Wiremu's Universe...the Prison Planet... the name is "Nietzsche".
I wonder what it is, other than the Individual Human Mind, which decides what is what, and whether the 'freedom' Callum speaks of, has anything to do with that...
The picture accompanying the words looks wonderful...I wonder if Callum would think so, if I were to show it to him...I then return the image to its envelope and place that on the small table between us. {Spoiler}
Manu Iti: I wonder too, what you might tell me regarding the image within that envelope...what does it convey to you Callum?{Same Spoiler...}
The bird on the short tree starts singing her morning song. It sounds very cheerful.
Callum: I don't know what you mean about my evidence for the existence of nothing. You seem to be treating "nothing" as a thing, which would be a category mistake.
The bird: One.
She hops a few times on the branch and seems to be enjoying herself.
Callum: You also seem to be thinking that your view is more simple. If so, why do you think that? My view looks like this:
1. In the beginning, there is the Mother.
2. In the middle (and end), there is the Mother and new Offspring which were not an ontological part of The Mother in the beginning. They did not exist. Hence, they "came from nothing." Logically (not locationally) they moved from being "nothing" to being "something."
Your view also has the Mother alone in the beginning, and then Mother and Offspring in the middle (and, I think, the end).
The bird: Two.
The bird now spins in a series of circles, raising it's head upon each completion, and then lowering it as the spin continues.
Callum: It matters not to me what glass would symbolize evil. Let's say the crystal clear river.
The bird: Three.
She now somberly twirls and appears to almost be doing a ballet, at least as much of a ballet as a bird dancing can be.
Callum: That image conveys to me that evil and good go hand in hand. There is a difference, but neither is better or to be preferred. If this were true, then eternal separation for the Offspring is not to be avoided. And what does this do to the reason you said justifies the Mother's choice of creation?
Callum now declares that to be treating "nothing" as a thing, would be a category mistake - which is what I have been arguing all along! It is an illogical idea!
Manu Iti: I see what you did there Callum!
The Ruru: Fanciful GodMagic
Manu Iti: How is it that when you declare that a thing can be created from a non-thing, then it is a perfectly acceptable idea when such an idea is fanciful! GOD-Magic!
I pause to give Unicus another treat.
Manu Iti: In doing so, one has to treat "nothing" as a "thing" in which The Creator makes "other things" from! That - I agree - is a categorical mistake!
It is an illogical premise to work from, regardless of the obvious temptation which motivates one to attempt it.
The Ruru: Get The Truth Innocent Even!
Looking into the science of Astral Projection...
The secular world is very apparently not interested in it at all, or it would be studied and debunked or verified, and people would be actively doing it and talking about it.
As it stands, those who are, are a minority which are considered fringe - or worse - depending on who is doing the considering.
UIC Device Existence
Water
Manu Iti: In relation to my question regarding the Water, Callum...I asked, simply to try and get an understanding of how you determine what is evil and what is good.
Perhaps you would like to rethink your answer...or explain to me why specifically you chose the water from the Crystal Clear River to represent 'evil' and - along with that - why it does not matter to you.
The Ruru: Gateway Worry/Anxious Remember/Memories
Manu Iti: Thank you for your answer to my question about the image in the envelope. It helps me to better understand your thinking regarding 'good' and 'evil'.
Like the water, which of the two beings in the image best examples 'evil' for you...and why?
The Ruru: Provincial Thinking A Vital Purpose Move Your Thoughts ...It is a Product of Fragmentation
I look back at the bird and she is slowly humming to herself and gently tapping her left foot.
Callum: I am not saying a thing is created from a non-thing. That is treating nothing as though it is a kind of thing. That is viewing that thing (called "nothing") transforming into a new thing, moving from one kind of objective existence into another kind. I'm not saying that. I'm saying there was no thing and then there was some thing. No transformation. This does not require one to treat "nothing" as a "thing". You may think the idea fanciful, but you have not shown it is illogical. It may be strange, but so is all of us being The Mother. Neither is illogical.
As for the water, the symbolism seems completely random to me. I don't view sea water or fresh water as evil; it's just water. Good and evil are determined by an agent. Ultimately, this comes from the subjective nature of The Mother. You have seemed to say that The Mother views separation and harm as evils, possibly necessary evils, but evils nonetheless.
The image you showed me seems to be playing off of typical devil (evil) and angel (good) imagery. In doing so, good and evil don't really mean good and evil, so it would be better to call the two images symbols of X and Y. If that image represents truth, then neither image examples evil, for evil has no meaning and no place there.
As I listen to Callum trying to convey how a thing can be logically created from a non-thing he attempts to say there is no transformation going on from the state of a non thing into a some thing. Such defies logic, which is perhaps why he has not been able to yet explain why he thinks it is logical.
The Ruru: The Navigator Can Read Maps.
Manu Iti: I find the map you show at present, is not navigational Callum...because...you have yet to show the logic in the idea of something which does not transform from a state of being a non thing, into the state of being some thing.
As I previously stated, it can only come from The Mother, and is in a state of potential until the moment of its creation/transformation into a thing.
Sourced within The Mother, rather than from a place of non-existence outside of The Mother.
Otherwise you have to explain to me how it is that a place outside of The Mother, exists, if The Mother is in fact, The Source of all which Exists.
We could go down the path/branch of the idea that IF The Mother is All Knowing and all present, then only ignorance can account for the Creation of the offspring into ignorance and from therein, notions of good and evil were created.
This is to say - that the 'nothing' place you claim is logical, could only be so, if that 'nothing' place was an ignorance which is in The Mother once the process has been initiated and The Mother places Herself into the state of ignorance.
The Ruru: Earth teachers (physical and non-physical) unite humanity to the Sovereign Integral
Manu Iti: In that case, 'nothing' followed 'everything' as in, it too was created as were the offspring, and through that process.
The Ruru: GodMagic Focused Individual You are
Manu Iti: As to the apparent randomness of bringing the subject of Water into our discussion Callum...It was instigated by your questioning that the ends justify the means. Yes, The Mother chooses to experience evil and good together, but because this will lead to a greater good (Mother plus Offspring) than what was originally there (Mother alone) it is okay.
I saw the journey in a ship crossing the ocean of good and evil in order to get from one place to the other. It is necessary but not something one can justifiably regard as something one can - from the middle position - make a verdict on.
This is specifically why those 2 songs I sung to you, make mention of the opportunity afforded to Forgive....as the opportunity is offered to those who have reached a verdict which they did not have enough information in order to do so. It is a thing of Grace. The Mother understands the Child's dilemma and provides a means in which the Child can get over the bridge built that for that purpose.
So I am definitely NOT saying the "Creator-creature" distinction affords no means to build the bridge" in light of the position that the creature does indeed, come from The Mother....rather than your place of 'nothing' separate from The Mother.
The bridge of forgiveness is an internal mechanism, rather than there being any actual need for an external one.
The Ruru: Of Your Thoughts Working Together With Love
Manu Iti: As to the image in the envelop, you remarked that if that image represents truth, then neither image examples evil, because evil has no meaning and no place there.
What about good? Does good have any meaning and place there?
The Ruru: Playing As Children Calculate
Manu Iti: By my calculations, if A is assigned the number one, B =2 and so forth, the
the following are word-strings which add up to the same numeric total - One Hundred and Seventy Six [176] - as the word-string "Playing As Children"...
I get out my special "Word2Number" calculator and find the list of word strings related to that number...Then I read these aloud.
[font=Arial] 1: Try to remember 2: You Can Trust 3: On The Right Track 4: Soul Retrieval 5: Playing As Children 6: Sleep Paralysis 7: Turning Point[/font]
The Ruru: The Blind Will See And Those Who Seek Will Find
Manu Iti: As you might agree - the strange coincidence shared by the word-strings is relevant to much of what we are overall presently in discussion about...and of course, you can receive from that, what you will...
Just then there came from the Mystic Forest the quiet giggle of The Patupaiarehe - a delightful sound indeed, and one not commonly heard...
The little bird on the short tree is joined by a slightly bigger bird. The perform a few bobs with their heads and then take up the song again. They seem to have a choreographed dance in mind that involves wings spreading, clawed feet tapping, and various head shakes. I laugh, but then gather my thoughts for Manu Iti.
Callum: I think our difference lies in what we think of this potential state. You treat the potential state as an objective part of The Mother's nature, for you think it has to exist. To me that seems illogical, for this state is both potential and actual/objective at the same time. Calling it a potential state that is actual is, at best, misleading. I treat the potential state as a potential state. Potential states are something that could be but are not. When something is potential, it does not have objective existence (i.e., nothing else objectively exists). Then when the potential becomes actual we must have a creation from nothing.
The birds swoop into the air in a dramatic spiral, distracting me for a moment, but I return to Manu Iti.
Callum: Sorry, I think the Tanager is messing with me over here. What was I saying? Know, if you nuance your thought and we are actually on the same page with what it means to be potential, then it really comes back down to whether The Mother must make the potential actual through her own substance or if The Mother can create a new substance. I see no reason to think the second is illogical. You seem to be saying it is illogical because it is not the former.
The birds break their spiral and I see the larger one, in the distance splash into the middle of a pond, before returning to the other.
Callum: You say that judgment cannot be made from the middle position. I don't think I'm doing that. the Mother makes the judgment in the beginning by knowing the end. The Mother judges separation and harm as a necessary evil to get the greater good. Why is that evil necessary?
This goes against the image because neither evil nor good has any meaning...everything is on equal grounding.
I look at the birds again, shaking their heads and ruffling their feathers with pleased looks within their eyes and beaks partly open.
Callum: I see nothing strange or important in the word-strings, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything. Tell me why you think it strange and important.
I notice that Callum has chosen not to answer my further questions regarding the water and the image...It is difficult for me to understand why he deems things 'good' or 'evil' and his answers might have assisted me in the understanding.
What he has explained - why he thinks a potential cannot exist logically - shows me that he has failed to take into account The Mothers omniscience.
As such, his argument allows for the potential to exist outside of The Mother, and thus from 'some other'.
The Ruru: Avatar Lost In The Thought Of It All
Manu Iti: Please explain to us if you will Callum.
When You say that you "treat the potential state as a potential state" is the potential state something rather than no thing?
The Ruru: Your Own Individual Actions T-Shirts Life Carriers
I rise and once more move to the Whole, slide aside the rock which covers it and feel inside. I retrieve something soft and lift it out. It is made of black material, which I unfold. It is a printed T-shirt with an interesting and rather relevant saying on it...I chuckle, slide the rock back over the Whole and turn in the direction of Callum...
Manu Iti: I do not know if you will understand this Callum - It appears The Ruru has reminded Wiremu of an image of a T-shirt he created years ago -
I place the T-Shirt on the small table between us, and resume sitting, offering Unicus another treat.
Manu Iti: As I previously explained, along the particular linear story timeline, positions Beginning, Middle and End are separated by those presently existing within the Middle section, and thus it becomes difficult for those who do so, to appreciate The Mother does not see things as they do - only from the Middle part.
The Ruru: Remove the phenomena and apply science
Manu Iti: It behooves each of us to learn to appreciate The Mothers position in regard to this, and while we do not, we remain separate by our own choice - not because we really actually are, but because we prefer the limited position the Middle affords to us and it is the limiting aspects of said position which allow for us, that choice.
The Ruru: Called To Order Important Form Make It Up AS You Go Along Source Sync All The Same
Manu Iti: The potential and the actual are not regarded by The Mothers position, to being different or separate.
Think of it in terms of a story book. Would you only read the middle part of the story and conclude that it is separate from the Beginning and the End - that the Middle separates the beginning from the end, and therefore the separation is real?
The Ruru: That is Correct Think In Terms Of...Be Aware.
Manu Iti: The Truth is, the middle acts as the bridge between the Beginning and The End.
The Ruru: Ride Water Lift your gaze from the fire...To The Big Shift
Manu Iti: The Mother knows the Whole Story. Therein The Mother understands that no real separation has actually occurred, and The Mother understands that The Offspring currently housed within the Middle, find that extremely hard to appreciate, but She has left enough clues for each of us to piece the apparent separate aspects together which allows for the individual to determine the Whole Story adequately.
The Ruru: You Can Trust Here Everything – All Real Together Besides...Cycles...Who Knows What That Is Worth?
Manu Iti: The bitterness generated through the perceived separation by those in the Middle part of The Story, requires forgiveness through understanding that we each are aspects of The Mother and thus, any harm is never permanent or even particularly meaningful when understood from The Mothers perspective.
Indeed, just getting the gist of it is enough....
The Ruru: Live with Secret...You Know What I Am Saying.
Manu Iti: Certainly there is no need to separate the Creator from The Creation as that in itself does nothing to fix the problem of evil - a problem which some people insist is real.
Unicus snorts once and nudges me goodbye. I watch as She saunters off toward the Mystic Forest - likely to meet with The Patupaiarehe. I don't blame her for looking for fun elsewhere...or being slightly indignant that I did not take Her up on Her offer to ride...I have a guest I still think worthy of my present time...
Manu Iti: As to my mentioning the coinsidence of the Word-Strings Callum...I find such things interesting in themselves. A bit like how Small Birds are prominent in our interaction...Wiremu assures me that this was not something which he and The Tanager have arranged behind the scenes...
Which reminds me...by my calculations, both;
1: Little Bird
and 2: The Ruru
...also add up to the same number...One Hundred and Eleven... [111]
Manu Iti now talks about separations that aren't actual separations because they are only seen that way from those in the middle. He previously talked about The Mother, not someone in the middle, but the Mother choosing separation. These kinds of equivocation are very confusing. This is why I've asked many times about what he means by "separation". The term is too fluid and seems to fit the shape Manu Iti needs in the moment.
Callum: Here are my various questions and thoughts, my friend. So, are you saying that the Mother never views any kind of separation as being actual? If so, what is the Offspring from her perspective? Is the Offspring not always with her, then? And, therefore, nothing is added to her in the End (although you previously said they were an addition)? It seems that you are using perspective to now equivocate on actuality. There are actual stages, but there aren't actual stages. Or there are, but the omniscient Mother isn't aware of them. Or there aren't, but something that is actually one with the Mother thinks there are while the Mother (that they are one with) disagrees.
Different temporal perspectives do not change what is actual or not. Either harm is real or it is not. If the Mother knows all, then she knows harm exists in the Middle and is okay with that. She apparently thinks it is necessary, but not a problem. That means she views harm as good and meaningful (the Mother, not someone in the Middle). Therefore, there is good and evil for the Mother. Even if you couch that in terms of knowledge and ignorance.
If there is a problem of evil, then (a) if there is no Creator-creature separation, logically, evil/ignorance touches and comes from the Creator, (b) if there is Creator-creature separation, evil may or may not touch or come from the Creator.
But to come to your direct question to me (and re-ask any I have unintentionally ignored or answered in a confusing way), a potential state is something that could be but currently is not. If it is some actual thing, then it is an actual state, not a potential state.
[/center]
