Musing On The Mother - Act I

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

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Musing On The Mother - Act I

Post #1

Post by William »

[center]Image[/center]

{Thinking to myself}

"I wonder why folk have to argue and cannot get along and just see how we all need to work together to make this planet wholesome?"

{Pokes at the fire with staff}

"We humans are like these sparks reaching for the heavenly ones. We need some kind of poke to get us activated."

{A wolf howls in the distance}


"We are all here experiencing this planet in this universe. Yet for reasons not entirely clear, we are distracted by our arguments. Hindered by them, even to the death."

{Places another branch on the fire.}

"Perhaps the fear of our situation would be too much to bear if we learned how to focus upon it, and so we distract ourselves..."
Last edited by William on Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #101

Post by William »

As I listen to Callums continued questioning, I am distracted by a sudden movement to my left. An oval portal has opened 3 foot above the ground and the face of a beautiful young woman appears in the opening.
We have a visitor from another dimension. The woman appears to be surveying the situation and is apparently unaware - or perhaps unconcerned - that I can see her.

As I am observing this Unknown Visitor I begin to hear a voice speaking in my head. I cannot be sure that it is sourced from the Unknown Visitor but since it coincides with Her appearance, I conclude that it most likely is...


Unknown Visitor: Visible We Are Answer In an environment which is able to perceive this.

Turning back toward Callum's position I continue to listen to his questioning, finding it interesting that he tends to ask more questions than he appears willing to answer, perhaps because he is curious, or perhaps because it is a way of deflecting...or maybe a mix of both...then as I am thinking on this, he ends his reply to me by mentioning my questions to him and asking me to repeat any which he might have let slip by...

The Ruru: Sharing Your Love Without Comparison Save That Guilt Trip Short Straw Matrix

The Ruru is being specific to Wiremu's Universe - how its prison population tend to act towards one another in separatism and judgement.
Is it any wonder that their ideas of GOD amount to similar attitudes...


The Ruru: Forgive Intent
Mathematics It May Seem Insignificant


Once again I use my Word2Number calculator for the word-string "It May Seem Insignificant" and find others related to it...
"Intuitive Intelligence"
"What Is Our Purpose?"
"The Wisdom of Foresight"


Manu Iti: I think that maybe 'information overload' comes with its own distractions, eh Callum?

I am still interested in hearing Callum's answer to what I have pointed out re the apparent weakness of logic of belief that The Mother can create things from no thing. I wonder if there is any point in moving on to the wider implications until this has been sorted, as it is from that initial point where we branch into differing directions...I think we need to agree to the same tree, before examining its branches...

The Ruru: Visible Get To Know It Final Destination Eternal Watcher Inalienable

Manu Iti: I get where you are coming from in your deductions regarding The Mother and the Middle, and agree with them.
We might say then, that we share agreement, but we don't because you have something of a wall to climb over in relation to that "problem of evil"...however, your "a" and "b" seem slightly at odds but perhaps not...can you clarify why you can include in 'b' the notion that The Creator has an option as to whether 'evil' touches or does not touch The Creator.

The main reason I ask is because if a Creator creates beings from a 'nothing' which is not from itself, and sets those beings within an environment - presumably also created from the same 'nothing' - and expects those beings to not express 'evil' but to 'be like its Creator' and to judge them on that and reward or punish accordingly
- not that you have mentioned any specific fates which can be dished out -

...my questions naturally have to be...

"Why do you see evil in my version and Love in your own? Where exactly is that Love visible?"


The Ruru: Carrier Identity Learn How to Deactivate The Suppression Matrix

That reminds me of The Ghost in The Machine...

The Ruru: Show Entity Do Something About It Do It For Yourself

Manu Iti: As to your concerns about the temporal perspectives not changing what is actual or not, you still have yet to understand The Mothers perspective enough to appreciate that there is no "or not". There is only the actual.

That is why I mentioned that being in the middle of The Story is not a great place in which to make any verdicts from.


The Ruru: Can You Imagine...The Law Occupy Unity with our Collective Self...

I ponder what The Ruru just spoke to me. I know that Wiremu has imagined such a thing...it is perhaps why this place exists as it does...

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Post #102

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Manu Iti still seems to think I've got more work to do to show that creation from nothing is a logical option. I am uncertain of what has been missed. I feel as thought I have nothing left to say concerning the logical coherence of the Mother creating a new substance rather than only transforming what is present. There is nothing illogical in putting the concepts "create" and "from nothing" together. That is enough to show it is logical. I mean, a married man is not illogical when looking at the meaning of those concepts. This is enough to show such a thing is logical. I don't understand why he thinks my response here is weak. But perhaps I'll leave that aside and see if we circle back around to it.

Callum: Sorry to have another question to ask of you, but I am curious to know your thoughts and how you make sense in light of certain questions. You say I have a wall to climb over with the problem of evil. How do you climb over it?

I think back to the various mountains I have climbed. An experience I enjoyed. Or was it The Tanager that enjoyed such experiences and is adding it into "my" story?

Callum: Now, to your questions. In option (b), I'm saying, logically, if there is Creator-creature separation and evil exists, then there are at least two options as to the source of that evil.

I pause and look to the trees. The second bird has left my little friend alone in the tree. She has stopped dancing and has her head resting upon her feathery shoulder.

Callum: The next question you ask requires a lengthier answer. I believe that the Mother is Love. The idea of a triune being (which I think the Mother is) already is a community of love. The Mother is that community; She is that love. But love is self-giving and wants more to enjoy such a community. She could break herself into many pieces, but this would still be the same being enjoying love, nothing new.

So, to accomplish this, the Mother creates a new substance as an environment. She then creates more new substances or essences or natures to live in this environment. Them being new beings adds to the number of beings that can enjoy the community of love. These beings are made to work in a certain way. That designed way is what is "good" for them, as decided by the Creator. To go against that is "evil"

But love can only be had where freedom is, for forced love is not love at all. She must, therefore, give her Offspring a will of their own. She desires for them to choose love and to live it with the other Offspring. But she can't force them to. The Offspring could have been perfect at this and they were at first. Yet, they grew tired of listening in love to the Mother. They thought they knew better. They wanted to decide good and evil for themselves.

What is the Mother to do? Punish them for breaking a rule and banish them forever? Force them to choose differently? Or seek to help them to turn back to Her, if they will it, and allow them to face existence alone, if they will that? I think she chose the latter, because She is Love. Love chooses freedom, which may lead to evil, but does not have to and is not wanted to.

The judgment isn't based on how good they choose to follow rules on their own. They were never meant to even try. She wanted to be there the whole time, guiding, choosing love together, granting Her limitless wisdom and strength for all who will it, as the Offspring worked in partnership with each other and her to push forward this new environment and the various beings within it.

In your version, it looks like The Mother views separation and harm as evil, and then commits that evil Herself. She doesn't create Offspring who may choose separation and harm, but the creation of Offspring is separation and harm. This is justified because separation will go away eventually and give way to a greater good that could not be had otherwise. I think it could be had otherwise, though.

A poem I once wrote is coming to mind that this reminds me of that I could share, if you would want. I will not add to your harm by singing it.

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Post #103

Post by William »

It appears that Callum believes he has offered evidence to support his assertions that his theology regarding The Mother, is logical.

He is definitely avoiding answering all of my questions to him...I see little point in moving on to the next until this is cleared up sufficiently to do so.

I intuit that this is because he has had too much information and is unable to meaningfully correlate it into a sensible picture...so meantime he continues to try and superimpose the picture he has, over the one I am presenting, resulting in conflation and subsequent confusion...indeed, it is lack of correlation forced through his theology which is the source of the confusion...


Manu Iti: By all means Callum, do share your poem with me.
But before you do so, I best answer your concerns, with some of my own.


The Ruru: Big A Meeting Place "Show Me Your Soul" Assigned Show Your Soul Elude Satisfaction

Manu Iti: The wall I mentioned does not really exist. Once I started to understand forgiveness and non-judmentalism, what once acted like a wall, became a Gateway, once the will to make judgement was removed, with the assistance of Forgiveness.
It is thus misleading on my part to say the wall can be climbed over...when really it is more about seeing through it as the illusion it really is.
The illusion is wrought through non-forgiveness and judgment.
Moving through that illusion is The Gateway.


The Ruru: Earth teachers (physical) disseminate and preserve the knowledge of the Grand Portal

Manu Iti: This is in relation to the individual. If it were a Species Collective move, it would be a Grand Portal indeed!

I smile inwardly at this...

The Ruru: This Is Part Of The Job Overall

Manu Iti: One of the questions I put to you, you have answered...it appears you are clarifying your statement about option (b) and in doing so, it now means something different to me than when you first mentioned it.
Either that, or you have changed your position?


The Ruru: Dream Experience Three In A Row
Few One Whom Ought Be Inwardly Known Romantic Propel
Have A Look At This And See What You Come Up With
Genetic Mind The Wisdom of Foresight Measurements Eisegeting
Commendably Recommendable Time For Soul To Drive


Manu Iti: You spoke of (b) in terms that if there is Creator-creature separation, evil may or may not touch or come from the Creator.
This allows for the option that, even with your theology re The Mother, evil can still come from Her.
This is confusing because your whole presentation of your theology hinges on The Creator being...without evil. So naturally there should be no option...would you agree?


The Ruru: Anterior Commissure Being - Unless of course, you think otherwise


Manu Iti: I am of the opinion that the brain can be rewired and this idea is intimately connected with having the ability to create a Gateway where once there appeared to be only a wall...

I think what Callum and I - at least the surface appearance of - share in common. We both understand that The Mother is Love...

The Ruru: The Father Commendably Recommendable The Neverland Metaphor Privacy "The Kingdom of God on Earth in this Universe" Doc
Remaining


I reach for the Envelopes tied with the Silver Chord and choose one.
Within it is something Wiremu wrote.

I decide to read it out.


Manu Iti: This is something Wiremu wrote about the subject;
  • Exactly!

    [font=Comic Sans MS]I have not been arguing that GOD is in the wrong here, only that GOD understands that in order for Adam (me) to understand what knowledge means, I have to experience it warts and all. Knowledge of good may indeed be cosy without knowledge of evil, but it is also incomplete for that. Evil is required under those circumstances because it exists (even as potential) and dealing with that is the whole biblical theme.

    We chose and we deal with the consequences.

    To call GOD 'evil' is evil.

    Yet the actions which appear to be contradictory need to be explained. GOD cannot work directly with the individual and ignore evil. Participation in evil is thus required and so GOD occasionally acts out evil.

    This is what caused the split in personalty between the two poles - GOOD and EVIL are recognized as opposing forces within a universe which is not opposed to itself if understood (scientifically) as a process which is self contained and at ONE with itself in that.

    It might appear to be chaotic, but is organised intelligently. We are just so deep within it that our perspective is forced to see chaos.

    Duality becomes the lens in which we see things through.
    [/font]
The Ruru: The Science Of The Soul The Art Get To Know It
Hmmmmm....
Tracking Progress...Looking behind the veil


Manu Iti: When you speak of your idea of The Mother you have to introduce unnecessary additions to what is, in order for it to appear to be logical.
This unnatural forcing of an explanation which allows for the idea of a Creator Being to be separate from Her creation.
For me, this is surplus to requirement, because it comes about through a lack of ability to accept what is so one injects unrealistic alternatives as a means of attempting to force into nature, the unnatural.
On top of that, you offset the natural by the uncomplimentary remark that The Mother - as I see Her, could "break herself into many pieces, but this would still be the same being enjoying love, nothing new."


The Ruru: Disagreeable Circle God/Source/Home Child When The Opportunity Presents Itself To Do So...Righty Oh!

Manu Iti: Specifically your idea of The Mother creating her offspring from something other than Herself forces the impression that the off-spring are 'not of Her' which means that the offspring have no Mother, and cannot even be said to be Children/offspring.
They are simply things to which they are then given the option by a type of surrogate "mother" who - it is claimed - will not even accept them as her 'children' unless they are 'good' enough.

Wiremu informs me - somewhat unnecessarily I might add - that such thinking has dire consequence upon motherless beings at subconscious levels which come through their behavior as pathological psychological damage.
Specifically, they are not even orphaned. They are simply 'made' and then given the option of choosing to be adopted and called "children" of their Creator, or shunned.

There - logically - is no actual Love involved in such a system....just pretense.


The Ruru: Gift
The Shaping Of Reality Separating any idea of GOD from All other Consciousness Doc


Manu Iti: Another unnecessary addition forced into the story to make that theology appear logical is claiming that the beings were 'perfect to begin with' but somehow 'grew tired of listening' to that particular love of their Creator and 'wanted to know good and evil for themselves' through their use of something called 'free-will' which you appear to argue is the very ingredient which signifies they are loved!

I read again from the document in my hand - for there is more Wiremu wrote there;

Manu Iti: To add to that, here is the rest of what Wiremu wrote;
  • [font=Comic Sans MS]As to logical analysis in relation to what you read, I am not expecting you to remember prior alternate reality experiences and understand that you get your information from the things you read and choose to believe in, here in this reality, on this planet.

    All I am asking is that you examine those beliefs honestly and sincerely and if I am to assume that this is what you have already done and thus why you believe what you do, then you should very definitely be able to transmit that to others like myself who are wanting to know the details in a logical, well thought out manner. If it is indeed a question of faith, I myself am of the opinion that faith needs to be questioned, when indeed apparent holes in logic are forcing faith to be required as necessary.[/font]
Manu Iti: And to finish - when I echo your thoughts on 'good' and 'evil' I am not saying that The Mother views separation and harm as "evil". I am simply echoing your own beliefs about that. It is you who see it that way.

Perhaps the condition isn't about 'information overload' as much as it is about 'barriers preventing information from getting through'?


Again I think of The Wall which can be transformed into The Gateway...

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Post #104

Post by The Tanager »

It seems to me that Manu Iti seems agitated at our miscommunications once again. I wonder what judgments he makes concerning our discussion, on why I can't understand him, where the problem lies. I decide to go ahead and share my poem, if for nothing else than to try and add to or regain the non-adversarial tone I am striving for in my curiosity, challenges, and sharing my own views.

Callum: I will try to answer your concerns, but before that I'd love to share that poem with you and get any thoughts you would have about it.

I see to my side that the small bird perks up, looking interested in the poem. I wonder if she will share a dance with it. Before I even begin she returns to her cute, innocent movements of joy.

Callum:

Labored breath rises in the cold
To fill the stillborn air
With my love’s good name, but rather
I only speak out fear

With slurred speech an unguarded mouth
Profanes the buried pledge
Covering my name in darkness
Save one memory etched

When wind whipped cross the barren earth
Stirring the ground to life
The scent of apples filled my nose
And I filled the storm’s eye

You stole a kiss with honeyed lips
That dripped all down my chin
I wiped it clean on my bare sleeve
But should have let it win

Now to seize your breath as my own
I gasp with open lips
Sucking in a sickening warmth
Inhaling dirt instead

With folded hands a sigh breaks forth
Great vapor in the wind
A folly seen through sunken sight
My last withered breath rent

Great ceremony of last rites,
Come down and purse your lips
Just one kiss upon my dry neck
Terrestial eclipse

Gentle rattle from leaf to bone
A melody once frayed
But graceful breath sings your sound
In the cool of the day


I watch as the bird seems to sigh a tweet and then goes about cleaning her feathers.

Callum: Regarding my view, you may be missing the general-specific distinction. I'm saying that when considering the general picture of a Creator separate from Her creations, there is the logical possibility that evil can come from either side. But, if the Creator is Love, this changes the picture. That kind of Creator cannot be the direct source of evil. Evil, then, can only exist if it comes from the other side.

Regarding your view there, I think I understand it differently then you think I do. I'm not finding logical fault with you when you say that the Offspring in the Middle see an illusion, calling it evil. I've no problem with that. But earlier tonight you said, if I remember correctly, that the Mother's act of creation is loving because she knows the End result will be complete Wholeness. You seemed to at least imply that if She knew the End would not result in complete Wholeness, then Her creation would not have been loving. To me that shows that the Mother views something (i.e., not being in Wholeness) as evil.

Then the picture is further confused because you say there is separation, an ignorance, but in a sense there is not a real separation because all along we are truly one whole with the Mother. If this separation is real at all, then the Mother views it as evil, but She is the only possible direct source of choosing this evil, which logically conflicts with the Mother being love.

I don't mean to offend you by saying something like The Mother breaks herself into pieces, but I'm trying to go off of what you are presenting me. I realize I could be wrong in that, but need to know how it misses the mark. It would be helpful for you to pinpoint exactly how that is a wrong understanding.


The bird: Thirteen.

Callum: You also speak of my view being unnatural and adding to what is natural. Where is the evidence that what you say is natural is natural? You have not established that. Yet you then seem to turn around and use this belief as a critique of my view...that my view is false because it doesn't match your view there. I'm not sure that is what you mean, but it seems that way to me.

The small bird flies off into the distance, probably looking for a worm or some such snack.

Callum: You speak of my view of the Mother not really being a Mother at all because it comes from something that is not her. Well, half the DNA is the father's is it not? Humans, in my view, are physical and spiritual. Dirt with the breath of life.

But even if you view this as analogical to adoption, I see nothing of pretense in the parent's love for their adopted children. And I certainly have not said that the Mother will only accept the children that are good enough, those that perfectly live out how they were intended. I said the Mother wants to come alongside her children and help them live the best life possible. In fact, that they can only do so if they allow the Mother to come alongside.


The small bird comes back with two worms in her mouth.

Callum: I'm also not sure we understand 'perfect to begin with' in the same way. I do not mean that they are prescriptively so, as though they could do nothing but make good choices. I simply mean that they, for a time, had not chosen evil. The Mother gave them a command. Instead of trusting that the Mother truly loved them and wanted their best, they perceived disobedience to be in their best interest. They didn't want to know what was good and evil; they already knew that. They wanted to redefine, to gain control of good and evil. And, yes, this picture is the Mother's love because the alternative is to turn the creatures into robots and robots cannot love.

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Post #105

Post by William »

As Callum recites his poem it allows me to understand more clearly how he has misread what I have had to say about The Mother, no matter that I have tried a number of approaches in attempts to rectify that.

Manu Iti: Thank you for sharing your poem and answering some more of my questions Callum...It helps me to see that you have interpreted most all of the various ways I have attempted to explain my position - incorrectly.

I move to the Whole, and after sliding aside the rock which covers it, I reach in and remove a large leather-bound book.

After sliding the rock back into place, I return to my seat, and place the book on the table between us.


Manu Iti: Within the pages of this book are the words we have spoken to each other from the moment you came to this place.
Please, read them if you will.
I think it might help for you to go over our conversation, as many of the questions you persist with, have been answered already.
If you still find after having read the book, that you are none the wiser - we can take up from where we left.
For now, I feel the need to stretch my limbs and take a walk down to King Frog Pond.
There is a special place there where I like to go to listen to The Silence.
Please do help yourself to more stew and anything else which you feel you might require that you can find here.
I won't be too long...


At that I rise - smile and bow slightly in Callum's direction - then move away from the campfire, heading off toward the pond.

The Ruru: Wiremu’s Commitment With Light and Dark - Who need to complain?

Manu Iti: Well they are two states of the one thing...those who see them as separate may see something to complain about...I am yet to be convinced the need is real though...I do empathize...Wiremu lets me know how hard it is for humans to think in terms of wholeness once they are indoctrinated into duality...

An Owl hoots an invitation to The Ruru.

The Ruru: Good on you mates!

With that, The Ruru fly's off to play with Her owl friends...I notice the Lady of the Portal (Wiremu tells me he calls Her "Penny Tuppence") floats beside me as I make my way down the winding path boarded by a beautiful array of complimentary colors of flowers... heading toward King Frog Pond, situated down the slope to the east of the Encampment.

A shooting star slowly arcs across the skyscape... I feel blissful, anticipating the Quiet Place I am heading to...

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Post #106

Post by The Tanager »

Manu Iti claims I have misunderstood his attempts and then gives me a book that covers our whole conversation. He says he has already answered my questions and is going to take a walk. He wants me to read through it. He seems to think this should clear everything up, as though the fault is mine alone. He could be right. I take up the book and read through it. I wonder if he will do the same in his quiet place. I turn to the bird, who is looking at me.

I'm not sure how much time has passed, but I don't see the answers that Manu Iti thinks I should. For some questions I have, sometimes he seems to be answering "yes", in other instances, "no" to the same question, and even "yes and no" at times. I'm sure I'm part of the cause of the misunderstanding. I wonder if he thinks he has been unclear at all. I'm still willing to try it out, but we need to start over, taking a step at a time. I wait for him to return. I sleep and feel rested. Maybe I slept for days, I don't know. I'll have the fire ready if he returns.


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Post #107

Post by William »

[center]Image
:study:[/center]

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Post #108

Post by William »

[center][font=Verdana]END OF ACT I


Image

At this time the thread remains unlocked and the Opportunity to constructively comment on the contents of this thread is open to all.[/font][/center]

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Post #109

Post by William »

[center][font=Verdana]Campfire Act I

In Order of The Unfolding[/font]
[/center]


PAGE 1

Manu Iti tells why he is at the Encampment.

Manu Iti: ...As to what brings me out this way...it is the best place I know to come when I require a clear channel of communication with The Mother. Like a spring cleaning opportunity - blows out the cobwebs and puts a spring back in my step.
And you?


Callum say's he has similar reasons for being at the encampment and wants to know more about The Mother Manu Iti mentioned.

Callum: My reason is pretty similar, although I don't know this Mother you speak of. I'd love to hear more about her.

Manu Iti first mentions The Silence.

Manu Iti: Out here among The Silence my senses are conflated into Being.

Callum confesses to needing nature and The Silence

Callum: Yes, my new friend, nature does an excellent job of confronting us with much that we often neglect. Often we don't want to hear what the silence has to say, but I know that I need it more than I seek.

PAGE 2

Manu Iti sings a song for his new aquantance.

Manu Iti:The Mother has laid upon my heart to sing this song which she inspired me to write many years ago...see if you can identify Her within the words Cullum.
I named the song "Dreams Of A Fallen Angel"


Callum compliments the song after an inner analysis.

Manu Iti's voice is a pleasant sound to my ears and my imagination takes off at the words.

A history of human abdication to take care of the earth and each other, first from ancient stories and then reluctantly upon my own bitterness and even more bitter silences. Then Jesus comes into thought at "Thy Will Be Done." I am enjoying the flow of this song and the accompanying howl seems to fit right in. Then, a mix of our sub-human cruelty and Jesus' great love. The rescuing kingdom He brings. And the melody brings in a more holy stillness as the thoughts continue to turn over each other. I then feel a pull to let go of my analytical mind and enjoy the song for its beauty, lingering still a moment after the singing is done. Eventually, I break the silence.


Callum: That was beautiful.

Manu Iti gives his own interpretation of the song

Callum: "Perhaps that forgiveness is where the Mother resides"

He is right of course...

Manu Iti: Yes my Friend - the obvious is always worth acknowledging - The Mother is also The Earth, The Heart of The Earth, and The Dragon...
...the song is less about retribution and more about restoration...about understanding deep processes which have taken eons to unfold, and the part we humans play in that unfolding, for we too, are aspects of The Mother



Callum then asks for clarification of the identities of The Fallen Angel and The Dragon mentioned in the song.
He also mentions being influenced by Christianity.


Manu first speaks of the Demiurge and also mentions being influenced by Christianity.

Callum speaks of The Demiurge as playing a game to which Manu Iti expands upon

Manu Iti: From our Human perspective, it certainly appears to be some kind of a game being played, I agree.

We have to acknowledge that long before 'Humans', The Demiurge existed, and is the reason for why this universe exists.

We can make the assumption that it may be that before the creation of the Human form, the concept of 'playing games' did not exist for the Demiurge as it was simply doing what a Demiurge does.

and also introduces ideas of how conscious interactions are types of Role-Playing, the need for forgiveness, how humans tend to be judgemental and how this effects things...

Callum detects different interpretations between he and Manu Iti's views on forgiveness and judgement

PAGE 3


Callum: I would have called myself a Christian growing up, but it wasn't until later that I began to fit its meaning. I think we mean different things by that term, though. There is one thing...

I laugh at my choice of words immediately and rub my hands together.

Callum: ...well, one thing that pushes to the front of my mind. I'm trying to grasp how two things fit together. You talk of us not judging one another, but then say forgiveness is the way out. Forgiveness, it seems to me, necessarily includes a judgment. We forgive those who have wronged us.

Manu Iti attempts an answer as to how forgiveness and judgement 'fit' together and Callum then wants clarification on a point


Callum: What do you mean when you say the "lens of judgmentalism"?

Manu Iti attempts to clarify which Manu provides then Callum asks

Callum: But how can one forgive without reaching a verdict that they have been wronged?

Manu Iti Replies
Manu Iti: Then one would be in the position of not having to forgive. Forgiveness would not enter into the field of inquiry...

I pause for affect...the frog croaks once more...I continue...

Manu Iti: Therefore, if one does not judge, one does not have to engage with forgiveness...but that was not what my question to you was asking.
The answer to my question is that there is no actual requirement for those who are judgmental to build into that, the act of forgiving.



The Ruru makes His first Appearence and stays on throughout Act I assisting Manu Iti with formulating answers

Callum still thinks that he and Manu Iti are talking at cross purposes

Callum: I think I follow you there, but there still is the possibility that we are talking on differently nuanced levels. I'm just not sure I would want to cross over into a place where no judgment occurs. If a child were kidnapped there, no one would judge that action as wrong, yet damage would have been done.

Manu also speaks about being created with the understanding he has always existed in his Universe and infers that Callum is not sure exactly where he presently is.

Manu Iti: I have been here forever, and know this place intimately. There are no secrets for me to uncover here...

PAGE 4

Manu Iti informs Callum of the "Blank Slate" event which happened while they were interacting, and that he no longer can see Callum, but only hear his voice.
He also infers that Callum does not really understand exactly where he is.

Callum questions Manu Iti on the reference to the "Bridge" and also asks him to clarify the inference.

Manu Iti asks Callum if he would describe how he sees Manu Iti, and describes how he saw Callum and asks if the description is correct.

Manu Iti informs Callum that they both were created and placed in this universe, by different creators.

Callum responds by pointing out that there is no reason to believe Manu Iti's claim.

Manu Iti then speaks about simulations as creations where characters are placed into by the simulation creators.

Then he shifts to say that they both are not really 'created' but that form gives them that impression.

Manu Iti also says that he is unable - at that time - to think of any evidence to support his assertions...

He names their creators and say's of them;

Manu Iti: Wiremu and The Tanager have beliefs systems which are not aligned and this interferes with the communication process.

Manu Iti informs Callum that the universe their creators reside is "A type of prison".

Manu Iti offers a tentative type of 'evidence' which might help convince Callum he is telling the truth.

Manu Iti: Wiremu tells me that you cannot hear The Ruru speaking to me...would that be correct?

If it is, then that should count as some kind of evidence that I am telling Truth.


PAGE 5

Callum is unconvinced by the tentative evidence Manu Iti offers.

He adds that if it was true, then he and Manu Iti are 'non-entities' because they "have no will".

Manu Iti claims that Callum could learn to build a similar connection of relationship with Callum's creator "The Tanager" as Manu Iti has with his creator, "Wiremu"

Manu Iti is inspired to mention Callum's "back-story" a a means of providing evidence which might help convince Callum that Manu Iti is telling The Truth.

Manu Iti inserts the idea that Callum can commune with The Tanager as Manu Iti does with Wiremu

Manu Iti is given more evidence by Wiremu which might help Callum accept what Manu Iti has been saying.

Manu Iti: Wiremu tells me that as you were approaching this Campsite, you had a slight concern that you might be heading into danger...something about how people are nowadays, and you might get shot...and then... maybe laughed at your concern and thought about your Mother...

Is this true Callum? Did this happen as I report it to you?


Callum agrees that it is true and this helps him accept The Truth Manu Iti has been telling.

Callum then asks what more Wiremu has to say through Manu Iti. He also acknowledges he understands why Wiremu would create the place for the story, trying to make his view more understandable.

PAGE 6

Alpha Wolf Entity make his appearance

Callum brings into the conversation 'The Nature of The Mother' and shares his concerns with Manu Iti

Manu Iti responds by focussing upon non-judgmentalism and forgiveness in an attempt to steer away from using these devices as a mean to examine The Mothers Nature.

Manu Iti tells the story of The Non-Theist Parachutist. After doing so, he tells Callum that he hopes the story will help Callum understand how judgmentalism works in relation to all individuals.

Callum does not understand the relevance of the story in relation to his concerns regarding The Mothers Nature.

Manu Iti begins to understand that the more he tries to help Callum see from Manu Iti's position, the more confused Callum responds...

Manu Iti changes approach and tries to get Callum to place himself in the postiion of The Mother.

Manu Iti: Let me ask you a question Callum...If you were an All Knowing Potential Creator existing alone in Wholeness, and you wanted to experience NOT knowing anything, would you create anything which would allow you to do so, if you knew that you would forevermore be lost to your true self?

Let me provide you with my answer.

"No, I would not."

Therein, if I did create such a place to experience, it must have been because I knew that I would regain full knowledge of myself at some stage while within said creation.


Callum admits he understands in part what Manu Iti is saying about The Mother, and also tells Manu Iti that The Tanager is perhaps withholding information from Callum.

Callum: I agree with you Manu Iti. If the Mother wanted to experience not knowing anything, she would only do so if she knew she would regain full knowledge at some future stage. The Tanager has not allowed me to see why the Mother would want to experience not knowing anything, though, if The Tanager even understands.

Manu Iti is puzzled by Callums response. He then focuses on a long involved conversation with the Ruru in the hope that it will help make sense of what Callum said.

Eventually Manu Iti speaks to Callum, more words to do with The Mother in the form of questions which might help Callum understand The Mother perspective and actions as being motivated by Love.

The Ruru also reminded Manu Iti of another song Wiremu wrote and asks if Callum would like to hear it. Callum agrees to hear the song.

PAGE 7

At this point The Tanager messages William his concern regarding judgement before he continues with the Role-Play interaction.

@Link

The interaction goes on for a few posts in the Sharing In The Building thread and the we resume our Role-playing.

[center]Back to The Campfire[/center]

This time Callum has nothing to say about the second song Manu Iti sings to him. Callums thoughts are focsued upon Manu Iti's idea of The Mother, which is so unlike The Tanagers and what Christianity teaches humans about The Nature of GOD.

Callum: What you have asked me rests on the judgment that The Mother is singular, which is unlike the Christian conception of God The Tanager has provided me with. The Tanager tells me that this conception is not of his design, so it exists in his and Wiremu's world as well. But let us assume that your judgment is correct, that GOD is not multi-personal.

Manu Iti thinks that Callum is conflating Judgement with discernment.

Manu Iti: Being discerning is simply accepting what is, without judgement. That was what I was trying to convey to you with my songs.

Manu Iti also attempts to get Callum interested in the serendipity associated with the choice of names for the Characters Wiremu and The Tanager use. Manu Iti purposefully uses the expression of disernment. "We Could Discern" rather than "we could Judge" in the hope that Callum might understand the difference...

Manu Iti:We could discern that the choice of names our creators gave us, was significant as coincidence. Serendipity. Divinely inspired even.
Others might judge it as co-conspiracy...something Wiremu and Tanager cooked up together to make it appear that way.


Manu Iti thinks that The Tanager is withholding information from Callum, which is making it difficult to explain thing to Callum adequately.

Manu Iti is prompted by Wiremu to reveal to Callum how The Ruru is given its Words, which are injected into the Role-Play situation. Wiremu thinks that it might help if Callum understands that The Tanager withholds that information, as the information might also assist Callum in understanding.

Manu Iti: The Ruru speaks to me of an experience Wiremu had once...

Wiremu would like me to tell you that although you do not hear The Ruru, he knows that The Tanager can read the words The Ruru speaks.
He wants me to explain the process involved in giving The Ruru its 'voice.


Callum suddenly begins to hear The Ruru - but not fully...he also starts to see unusual things happen

Manu Iti quickly surmises that Callum is beginning to create things and realizes that Callum is not fully aware that he is co-creator, creating these things with The Tanager...

Callum informs Manu Iti that the The Tanager wishes for Callum to explain the symbolism in the newly created things...

Manu understands then that The Tanager is beginning to make a more initmate connection with Callum.

Callum continues to claim that Manu Iti is making Judgments and that Callum cannot understand why such a place exists where the rule is "Make No Judgements" when Callum maintains that Manu Iti is making Judgements.

Callum: One thing that remains confusing is why you seem to say rejecting your claims as true...what I have done...is a judgment, but accepting them as true...what you have done...is not a judgment. You seem to be playing with words and holding a double standard. I must be missing something. Can you clear that up for me, my friend?

Manu Iti Responds;

Manu Iti: My Friend. I am in no way expecting you to accept how I see The Mother and the creation. Nor am I judging you for not doing so.
I simply told you of this place and mentioned The Mother and you wanted to know more.



Callum also introduces that his understanding is that The Mother created humans "out of nothing" rather than of Herself.

This follows a lot of discourse on the, as Manu Iti thinks it is a fallacy to introduce an idea which has no correlation with what exists, and cannot be shown to exist.
He argues that introducing such a concept is unnecessary.

PAGE 8

Callum contends that Manu Iti's version of The Mother cannot be Loving. She can only be evil.

Callum: A being that is all-knowing and all-loving, logically cannot choose that which is not loving. If The Mother only will create given an assurance of restoration, then this means she sees acts of harm, separation, etc. as unloving, as evil. The Mother cannot choose the separation and harm of becoming many offspring and still have been all-loving.

Manu Iti sees Callums reasoning as being based in Judgmentalism.

Manu Iti: Ah - now I see better what it is you are saying Callum. The distinction isn't in whether The Mother Created, but the process involved.
You say you cannot accept my understanding of that process, apparently because you verdict this as unloving and therefore as evil.


Unicus the Unicorn comes into the encampment and stays for a brief time.

Callum explains his understanding of freedom and actualization. While it goes some way to helping Manu Iti understand Callums position, it still relies upon the idea that The Mother created her off-spring from a mysterious 'nothing' which was not part of Her.

Manu Iti also reveals to Callum that;

Manu Iti: Well Callum - as I previously explained to you a little bit...this place you find yourself within is The Hub of The Hologram Universes.
The nature of this place responds to the individuals beliefs and this is why, although you think you see me - as you have described me - you yourself manifest what I look like for your own perceptions.


PAGE 9

Callum: The relationship between divine concept and objective actualization may be an important difference of our beliefs. One thought races back towards freedom. If one must actualize all they conceive, there is a lack of freedom, at least in one sense. In my view, there is still that freedom because The Mother knows more concepts than She freely chooses to actualize. On your view, it seems that The Mother does not choose to create because She sees a good outcome; for as soon as She thinks of separation, it must come regardless of the outcome.

Manu Iti understands that the idea of having a creation which is separate from the Creator allows for that Creator to remain 'unsullied' as it were, since The Problem of Evil exists for all those who are Judgmental.

Thus one cannot have an idea of GOD which is directly linked with that problem, which is why Callum is insisting in his theology being correct while Manu Iti's is sullied.

Manu Iti then tries a different approach in an attempt to help Callum appreciate what Manu Iti means.


Manu Iti:We might agree that the three stages of this process are;
1: The Beginning
2: The Middle
3: The End.


And

Manu Iti: Your argument, with the addition of having to defend "nothing" as logical in order to try and fix the evil problem, stems from one aspect of the process...that being the Middle.

Manu Iti also mentions that The Mother is right there with The Children, She is literally Her Children.

Manu Iti: The Mother - of course - understands the evil problem and that is why we also have knowledge of the solution. Making the Creator a separate and non responsible entity only increases the separation and affords no means in which to "build a bridge and get over it." It is a tough ask over a scary chasm.

Manu Iti knows that Callum has so far avoided answering questions as to why Callum regards certain things as 'evil' and give his own interpretation of what he thinks evil really is.

Manu Iti: Evil really then appears as it truly is - the product of ignorance which cannot remain indefinitely because "knowledge" is inevitable. We are free to work that our in each of our own ways and means...with a little help from our friends...invisible, imagined, or otherwise...it is a real...

Manu Iti once more spends much time interacting with The Ruru rather than with Callum, as he tries to understand how he can best transmit his theology without being judged or accused of judging, by Callum.

PAGE 10

Callum persist with The Problem of Evil, and Manu continues to attempt to get Callum to convey exactly what it is that makes something necessary to call it 'evil'

Manu Iti: If I placed before you two glasses of water - one labelled "From the Salty Sea" and one labelled "From the Crystal Clear River" and asked you which one you would choose as the symbol for 'evil', on what basis would you choose?

and

Manu Iti: I wonder too, what you might tell me regarding the image within that envelope...what does it convey to you Callum?{ Spoiler...}

Callum's answers appear to be creating more barriers rather than being helpful to Manu Iti understanding where Callum is at in relation to 'evil' and his apparent need to label things as such.

Callum: It matters not to me what glass would symbolize evil. Let's say the crystal clear river.

Manu Iti: In relation to my question regarding the Water, Callum...I asked, simply to try and get an understanding of how you determine what is evil and what is good.
Perhaps you would like to rethink your answer...or explain to me why specifically you chose the water from the Crystal Clear River to represent 'evil' and - along with that - why it does not matter to you.


Manu gets no further help from Callum in clarifying why he identifies certain things as 'evil'.

The conversation then spirals into repetitive nuances. Manu Iti is inspired by The Ruru to bring another aspect of Serendipity into the conversation to do with words-strings and Mathematics.

Manu Iti: As you might agree - the strange coincidence shared by the word-strings is relevant to much of what we are overall presently in discussion about...and of course, you can receive from that, what you will...

Unfortunately Callum takes the position that he sees no significance in the word-strings and asks;

Callum: I see nothing strange or important in the word-strings, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything. Tell me why you think it strange and important.

Callum also things that the Judgement comes from The Mother at the beginning position rather than as Manu Iti states, it comes from the middle position.

Callum: You say that judgment cannot be made from the middle position. I don't think I'm doing that. the Mother makes the judgment in the beginning by knowing the end. The Mother judges separation and harm as a necessary evil to get the greater good. Why is that evil necessary?

Manu offers an analogy to do with reading a story from a book

Manu Iti: The potential and the actual are not regarded by The Mothers position, to being different or separate.
Think of it in terms of a story book. Would you only read the middle part of the story and conclude that it is separate from the Beginning and the End - that the Middle separates the beginning from the end, and therefore the separation is real?


Callum clarifies his assertion regarding 'potential' as like 'Nothing'.

Callum: But to come to your direct question to me (and re-ask any I have unintentionally ignored or answered in a confusing way), a potential state is something that could be but currently is not. If it is some actual thing, then it is an actual state, not a potential state.

At this point, Penny Tuppence enters the situation.

Manu iti suspects that his attempts at continued trying to explain to Callum has only resulted in Callum being overloaded with information and thus unable to easily comprehend and assimilate a strange and difficult idea.

Manu also understand that this is created by a barrier contructed by Callum's beliefs - as injected into him by The Tanager.

Again Manu Iti explains to Callum why it is important for Callum to clearly say why Callum thinks anything as 'evil'.

Manu Iti: The main reason I ask is because if a Creator creates beings from a 'nothing' which is not from itself, and sets those beings within an environment - presumably also created from the same 'nothing' - and expects those beings to not express 'evil' but to 'be like its Creator' and to judge them on that and reward or punish accordingly
- not that you have mentioned any specific fates which can be dished out -

...my questions naturally have to be...

"Why do you see evil in my version and Love in your own? Where exactly is that Love visible?"


PAGE 11

The 'Wall' Barrier is then discussed between them, and Manu Iti tweeks his analogy from 'climbing over the wall' to 'seeing through a Gateway in the wall"

The Wall representing The Problem of Evil and the accompanying Judgements regarding that.

Callum then explain more fully his idea of The Mother as a constrast to Manu Iti's, which he say's reminds him of a poem he once wrote

Callum: In your version, it looks like The Mother views separation and harm as evil, and then commits that evil Herself. She doesn't create Offspring who may choose separation and harm, but the creation of Offspring is separation and harm. This is justified because separation will go away eventually and give way to a greater good that could not be had otherwise. I think it could be had otherwise, though.

A poem I once wrote is coming to mind that this reminds me of that I could share, if you would want. I will not add to your harm by singing it.


Once again Manu Iti tries to correct Callum regarding Callum's thinking that Manu Iti version of The Mother "views separation and harm as evil"

He also spends some time speaking the anaglogy of the human brain being able to be rewired.

Manu Iti also suggests that there are unnatural things which Callum introduces in order to give some kind of 'logic' to the theology of The Mother Creator.

Manu Iti:When you speak of your idea of The Mother you have to introduce unnecessary additions to what is, in order for it to appear to be logical.
This unnatural forcing of an explanation which allows for the idea of a Creator Being to be separate from Her creation.
For me, this is surplus to requirement, because it comes about through a lack of ability to accept what is so one injects unrealistic alternatives as a means of attempting to force into nature, the unnatural.


Callum then recites his poem which he said Manu Iti's version of The Mother reminded him of. In that light, Manu finds the poem very unflattering to say the least. But it does give him extra insight regarding Callum's position on the matter, which Manu Iti finds helpful...

Manu Iti: Thank you for sharing your poem and answering some more of my questions Callum...It helps me to see that you have interpreted most all of the various ways I have attempted to explain my position - incorrectly.

Callum answers Manu Iti's concern that if the Off-Spring were not from The Mother, then they couldn't really be regarded as Her Children.

Callum: You speak of my view of the Mother not really being a Mother at all because it comes from something that is not her. Well, half the DNA is the father's is it not? Humans, in my view, are physical and spiritual. Dirt with the breath of life.

But even if you view this as analogical to adoption, I see nothing of pretense in the parent's love for their adopted children. And I certainly have not said that the Mother will only accept the children that are good enough, those that perfectly live out how they were intended. I said the Mother wants to come alongside her children and help them live the best life possible. In fact, that they can only do so if they allow the Mother to come alongside.


At this point Manu Iti decides that he requires "Time Out" from the conversation. He give Callum a book which contains all the words and narration of their whole conversation to date, asks Callum to read it because all Callum's questions to Manu Iti have been answered and are contained within the book.

With that, Manu Iti leaves the encampment with The Ruru and Penny Tupence, and heads for King Frog Pond to enjoy The Silence.

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Post #110

Post by The Tanager »

I will choose not to write a similar summary. For the most part I agree with your summary, but we seem to have talked past each other at points. I think a second act and different approach may better bridge those misunderstandings.

I do want to clarify, though, that Callum did not say that Manu Iti's version of The Mother reminded him of the poem he shared, but that he was talking of their different views on the Mother and that difference reminded him. Callum wanted to share a poem that could speak to his own view, not to what he thought Manu Iti was saying.

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