Musing On The Mother - Act I

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

Moderator: William

Locked
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 6461
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 165 times
Contact:

Musing On The Mother - Act I

Post #1

Post by William »

[center]Image[/center]

{Thinking to myself}

"I wonder why folk have to argue and cannot get along and just see how we all need to work together to make this planet wholesome?"

{Pokes at the fire with staff}

"We humans are like these sparks reaching for the heavenly ones. We need some kind of poke to get us activated."

{A wolf howls in the distance}


"We are all here experiencing this planet in this universe. Yet for reasons not entirely clear, we are distracted by our arguments. Hindered by them, even to the death."

{Places another branch on the fire.}

"Perhaps the fear of our situation would be too much to bear if we learned how to focus upon it, and so we distract ourselves..."
Last edited by William on Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 6461
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 165 times
Contact:

Post #71

Post by William »

I notice an area of the Campsite which appears to be blurring in and out of clarity. It is a sign that my guest is experimenting with his creativity.

Callum seems to feel that I am saying he should accept what I accept and in that, I am judging him.


Manu Iti: My Friend. I am in no way expecting you to accept how I see The Mother and the creation. Nor am I judging you for not doing so.
I simply told you of this place and mentioned The Mother and you wanted to know more.


The Ruru: I Know Open Minded Sceptic Few
Happiness Is...Plan Read/Book/Story Subconscious Consciousness Spiritual Activism Ask And It Will Be Given How Spiritual Activism Wishful Thinking Dualic Energies Rules


Manu Iti: I am simply the stranger you encountered upon your journey and am telling my story.

The Ruru: Watch Me Grow Is there any such thing as 'Objective Morality'

Ah yes...The Ruru, yet again, reminds me of conversations I have had...

Manu Iti: I remember a conversation I had one time about Morality. It went something along the lines of;
  • "Morality of itself is not that which causes animosity. Animosity causes animosity. It is its own cause, I observe.

    Personally my own theology respects the potential humans have in their universe to get their act together, but also acknowledges that that particular experience of that particular universe is simply a phase.

    If humans as a species do not 'make it' in terms of getting a foot-hold, then all is not lost.

    They will have the opportunity as a species to correct waywardness in the next phase as well.
    This is because it is all an ongoing process of integration into that which such souls are been impermanently lost to.


I personally have no problem in thinking that me doing no purposeful harm to you and you doing no purposeful harm to me is a true representation of morality - moral uprightness.


When I say I accept from my position, while you judge from your position, I am acknowledging your apparent belief that everything we do is somehow based in judgement. So that is why I say that you are judging...because you are not saying anything other than you are judging.
If I have misunderstood you regarding that, then please let me know.


The Ruru: Stay The Dangers of Separating Human Consciousness From Any Idea of GOD In relation to eternity, 'when' is always a potential.


Manu Iti: As to The Mother regaining Her wholeness, I am referring to the state of self awareness that She was in, prior to her entering into the state of ignorance. At that prior time, there were no offspring but she foresaw that through the process, offspring would be created. Having the prior knowledge that She would regain her wholeness - rather than eternally being lost to Her self - and that her offspring created through that process would also all eventually reach that same understanding of who they are, this is based in Love. The pain and feelings of separation are not eternal and will naturally be replaced with empathy one individual at a time, inevitably.

There are not 'two kinds of wholeness' because The Mother is also The Offspring, as She really always has had the Offspring as a potential within her.
So her regaining Wholeness and her Offspring entering into the awareness of Her Wholeness, is one and the same action, simply seen through different perspectives of The One Being...The Mother.

I do not understand why you think of this as NOT being a product of Love, other than you appear to be focused upon the journey and not the destination.

Nor do I understand why you believe that it can only be an act of Love if a creator - somehow - creates conscious beings out of nothing and this separation is an act of Love.

You have complained that my understanding of the creator/creation process is not a logical act of Love, but your also state that your own version is a logical act of Love, but you have not yet provided the explanation as to why you think such is logical. Perhaps you will do?


The Ruru: The Seventh Archetype of First Source.

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2437
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Post #72

Post by The Tanager »

Callum: And you think I'm expecting you to accept how I see The Mother and the creation? Or that I am judging you for not doing so? I'm simply telling you of my thoughts and reasonings. I am not judging reality any less than you do. We both accept certain things as true, these are parts of our journeys. And we both think the other is wrong, at least where they contradict our own acceptances. Either The Mother exists as you envision or she doesn't. Me sharing why I think she doesn't isn't a judgment on you.

I look at the scenery behind Manu Iti. The moon is still shining in a clear sky, but there is a tree (or is it just one?) behind him. I can't decide if the huge trunks have their own roots, or if this is simply one tree that appears to be two strong-trunked plants.

Callum: Before I can explain my thoughts on Love better, I need some clarity. What do you mean that The Mother is The Offspring because she has always had them as a potential within her? An oak tree has acorns and some of these acorns become other trees. But the initial oak tree is a different entity from the new oak trees springing forth. There is separation there. You cut down one of the new ones and the old tree does not feel it. Is this like the connection you speak of between Mother and Offspring or is it closer than that?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 6461
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 165 times
Contact:

Post #73

Post by William »

Callum has now confessed that what he is actually expressing is that he does not believe that The Mother exists!
I suppose this goes someway to explain why he has not directly answered my own questions to him...he also seems to be assuming that I have a particular motive which explains why he thinks that I think he is 'wrong'... such assumption! I have no idea why he would think that!


The Ruru: Electrics Contact With Conception Pareidolia Untrue

Manu Iti: I had no idea that you think The Mother does not exist Callum!
Is this belief of yours newly formed in conjunction with our meeting, or did you possess it prior to stumbling into this encampment?


The Ruru: The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions

Manu Iti: As to your question regarding The Mother and her offspring, neither I nor The Mother consider the trees or the fruits to be separate from Her, as each are part of the other, and have a common connection.
If you can identify that connection, you are looking into the Eyes of Love.


The Ruru: What begs attention is...The Clutter Of Comparison

The Ruru is correct of course. Sometimes the trees are not seen for the forest, and sometimes the forest is not seen for the trees.
The Mother is The Nest and The Eggs. The Womb and The Fruits...


Manu Iti: Comparison tends to separate that which is actually altogether.

The Ruru: WingMakers Philosophy 2 [Doc]
  • The consciousness of the Sovereign Integral is the destination that beckons the human instrument inward into the reality of First Source. In all the wanderings of the human consciousness from Source Reality, it has eliminated the compelling features of Source Reality through the application of the logical mind and the persistent belief in the language of limitation that flows from the external controls of the hierarchy.


Manu Iti: Perhaps now Callum, you will explain to me why you believe there is no logical reason for you to see the motivation of Love in the process of The Mothers Creation, by laying out your own thoughts about Love and Creation, as you believe it to be?

The Ruru: What might occur?

Manu Iti: Please do not allow for any lack of clarity you perceive in my own explanation, to create a reason not to answer the questions I have put to you...Please explain to me why your own version of Creation is a logical act of Love...so that it might help me understand what those supposed differences your see, are...

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2437
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Post #74

Post by The Tanager »

Callum: I said exist as you envision her. That could mean not exist at all or you could have her characteristics wrong.

I look at the tree that is either one or two, I'm not sure which.

Callum: A being that is all-knowing and all-loving, logically cannot choose that which is not loving. If The Mother only will create given an assurance of restoration, then this means she sees acts of harm, separation, etc. as unloving, as evil. The Mother cannot choose the separation and harm of becoming many offspring and still have been all-loving.

Therefore, there must be an ontological distinction between Mother and Offspring from the beginning. In my view, the all-knowing, all-loving Mother creates other ontologically distinct creatures with will. This creation is good. These ontologically distinct creatures, then, are responsible for the harm, separation, etc. They choose it. That does not negate the loving choice of The Mother.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 6461
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 165 times
Contact:

Post #75

Post by William »

I listen as Callum explains that what he said was that he did not accept my understanding of how The Mother Creates, and then gives his reasons for why.

Manu Iti: Ah - now I see better what it is you are saying Callum. The distinction isn't in whether The Mother Created, but the process involved.
You say you cannot accept my understanding of that process, apparently because you verdict this as unloving and therefore as evil.

You mentioned previously that The Mother created conscious beings 'out of nothing' and thus they are not 'ontological' in that the beings do not have the same nature as The Mother.

You claim this is logical...you have yet to explain how that is the case, and then show why this is regarded by you as being an act of Love.

Please continue...


The Ruru: Written In The Clouds Electrics

In the distance I see the evidence of a far away storm - lightening displaying its ferocity...

The Ruru: Love Your Life - Victim Vampire Energy Systems Communication...

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2437
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Post #76

Post by The Tanager »

I give a sigh as there appears to be some clarity that wasn't there before. Those moments before clarity can always be a little tense, people talking past each other a little and desiring understanding. In the distance I see a storm collecting, in all its glory. I remember to smile at Manu Iti again.

Callum: Why do I think creation "out of nothing" is logical and an act of love? I am not saying it has to be creation out of nothing. I'm simply saying that I see no reason creation out of nothing would be illogical. We can conceive of magicians and the sort. Magic may not be true, but it is not on par with a married bachelor. The Mother could have turned her own "material" into her Offspring or created Offspring of a different "material" like a magician claims to conjure.

If it is the second kind, as I believe it is, then it makes sense to me that a being of Love would choose to share that Love with others. Love does not control the actions of those beings that are other. This very allowance is an act of Love. You are worth choosing your own path. Even if that choosing leads to unloving actions, the initial gift is still a loving gift...for the alternative would be to outlaw love in the very act of exercising complete control.

The first kind of creation, it seems to me, results in Love itself, in itself, actually choosing something unloving. That would be a contradiction in terms.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 6461
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 165 times
Contact:

Post #77

Post by William »

Callum claims that there is logic in the idea that The Mother could have turned her own "material" into her Offspring or created Offspring of a different "material" like a magician claims to conjure. It is an interesting proposition but for the fact that magic isn't logical to begin with...Callum's preference is for the latter rather than the former...I understand now where the branching away of our thinking happens...it is at the point of separation between the former - which is really the position I am assuming, and the latter...

The Ruru: Oops.....To Accommodate Speculation Author Known ...Just Be…All Else Will Follow

Manu Iti: The main problem with the magic theory Callum - appears to be finding logic in the illogical.
It is all very well to think the magician can conjure some thing from no thing - but we all have to accept that this is no more than illusion. That it looks real, does not make it so.
Specifically, this is why we would have to assume the first as the likely. The Mother created her offspring from Herself rather than from nothing...that is the logical assumption to make.


I think on the songs I have sung for Callum - that was what the message is about...for the offspring integrating with The Mother...there is the requirement to forgive actions which appear unloving until they are understood in the framework of the bigger picture.

The Ruru: It’s Our Nature - A Maze Game

Manu Iti: When we believe we are separate from The Creator, it would do us well to examine where those beliefs were propagated and what reasons there may be for this having been done.
Discernment is a necessary device in that process. I discern no logic in your immediate reasoning as to how my understanding is based within the constraints of unloving evil, while yours is - through the addition of magic - somehow an example of love and goodness.


The Ruru: Aye...A name I call myself. :)

The colors created by the lightening in the distant sky are stunning to behold...for a long moment I allow the display to distract me....

Manu Iti: From what you just said, I understand that the idea of there being no inbuilt mechanism that eventually means all the offspring will gravitate naturally back to The Mother, to which you appear to feel is not really any act of Love because the offspring are not really choosing this for themselves...whereas, your theology allows for the choice for the offspring to never chose to integrate.

This is what you see as the only basis for Love and Good to genuinely express itself from...whereas the way my theology presents, it is all rather preordained and has to be an expression of fear and evil...


The Ruru: The Limitations Romantic ...Standstill Contemplate

Manu Iti: So within the structure of your theology you have the problem of explaining the logic involved in creating a sentient self-conscious being from nothing, and the ultimate question as to what happens to those who do not "pass the muster" as it were...are not fit candidates for becoming The Mothers offspring....

The Ruru: The Hierarchy Life On Mars Doc

I think about the Universe Wiremu is currently doing time within. Perhaps the predominance of the separatist element is a major reason for why they exist in such an environment...and why they create what they do...
What were those words I once read....attributed to The First Source...?


The Ruru: "You may bring your doubt, your fear, your faith, or your courage; it matters not, for you will be touched by the rhythm of my voice. It moves through you like a beam of light that sweeps -- if only for a moment -- the darkness aside.
My voice will help you reconnect with me. It will enlarge your vision of my domain, purpose, and my unyielding love for each of my creation, no matter where or how you live."


I think about how Callum looked down at his hands and wondered if it were his own volition to do so, or his creators command that made the action happen...and how I had said that it effectively does not matter. What matters is that we are experiencing being individuate sentient beings with powers of choice and creative expression. Why would the one be evil while the other be love?

I look forward to Callums answers...I also think it is about time for another brew...

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2437
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Post #78

Post by The Tanager »

I listen to Manu Iti's response, but it seems he has misunderstood things a bit. Some leaves blow away from my feet as a cool breeze winds itself down into our midst.

Callum: We need to separate the argument and the analogy. The analogy is not that creation from nothing is magic (that would be an identity statement). The analogy is that creation from nothing is like magic in a specific way (coming from nothing with the help of another being) but not others (it is not necessarily an illusion). To reject this argument because you and I don't believe in magic misses the point. It would be like rejecting Usain Bolt's gold medal Olympic victories because one said he was like a cheetah and we know that cheetahs can't represent their country in such an event. I'm not arguing that "creation from nothing" is logical because it is magic. I'm simply saying that I see no reason that "creation from nothing" is illogical. You claim it is illogical. What further reason do you have that "coming from nothing" is illogical?

This is the earlier step in our discussion, so the other pieces must wait until we get some clarity here.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 6461
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 165 times
Contact:

Post #79

Post by William »

As I pour myself another brew, I listen to what Callum explains about his use of the word 'magic' as an analogy. I struggle to make sense of his explanation.

Manui Iti: I agree that this needs to be clarified Callum. I have already explained my own theological position to you and it is clear that you understand what I am saying in regard to that.
It is now your turn to do likewise. If you do not mean that The Mother created from - shall we agree - 'something other than Herself' - then the question remains.

"From where did She create the offspring, if not from Herself?"

That is the key issue as far as I can tell. Since you see creation from nothing is logical, the question you need to answer, is why do you see it this way? Explain why it is not illogical.

I do not need any further reason to explain why it is not logical. I have already given an argument which removes any requirement for something other than The Mother to have created Her offspring from Her Self.

Your argument that this is an act of evil, is besides the point, until you can establish a logical answer for how The Mother created offspring from some other source outside of Her Self.


I take a sip of the tea...it is warm and refreshing against the cold breeze which has sprung up in the campsite.

The Ruru: Shuussssh...Observed by Many...

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2437
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Post #80

Post by The Tanager »

I see steam rise from the cup in Manu Iti's hands. He is a bit confused and I feel I have been a little confusing in trying to get my thought across. Why couldn't The Tanager and Wiremu create our world with the technology to instantly understand every crack of every thought? Of course, then, there may not be incentive to pursue each other in love and seek that understanding. Who knows?

Callum: On the face of it, it seems to me that the ability to create something from nothing would be the highest showing of power. Of course that does not mean it must be true. And, again, I'm not saying that The Mother could not have created Offspring from Herself. I'm saying that pieces of Her becoming the Offspring is not the only logical possibility for Her.

A married bachelor is illogical because the terms mean contradictory things. To be a bachelor is, by definition, to be unmarried. I don't see how creation from nothing involves this kind of contradiction of terms. To create does not mean, by definition, to change what is already there.

On top of this, just recently in our world, trees have come into existence from nothing. This seems to speak to its logical possibility, because one cannot do the logically impossible. But we could still not have a married bachelor in our world, or a square circle. Now, The Tanager tells me that Wiremu and his world does not have trees popping into existence like that, but that does not mean such a thing is illogical.

Locked