Sharing In The Building

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

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Sharing In The Building

Post #1

Post by William »

Participants in the Threads are entitled to help create the environment of this "Around The Camp Fire" sub-forum.
I, as moderator, am interested in helping to build an environment that all participants are comfortable with, bearing in mind that the rules of this sub-forum are the cornerstones from which such foundation will be built, and as such - are the overall guide for all participants to follow.

The use of PMing for the purpose this thread is created to do, is discouraged.
The moderator wishes the Readers to have access to data of process which PMing would otherwise hide from them.

Any comments and questions related to post in this thread, should also be answered in this thread, rather than in the role-play threads.
Last edited by William on Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #41

Post by William »

I am not missing the general point you made. I gave you my explanation and if you are unwilling to follow the Story-Line then you are less likely to understand what it is I am pointing out to you.

I am not being condescending either. You clearly stated that you were the one to blame for Callum being in his present position...
  • "I have since talked to the Tanager who has assured me not to blame Manu Iti or Wiremu for this occurrence, saving the blame for himself."@
...so unless you were being untruthful about that, one can take it to mean that you accept your responsibility in relation to abandoning him as you did.


If we were to go back and edit the story so that you can do the same thing with Ruthie, then this will create another problem which will have to be dealt with. Responsible Creators do not abandon their Creations.

If you were to play Ruthie within The Realm of The Cats as your own character, we would have to go right back to at least when Ngaru Whaea ordered Callum to leave Her Realm, so that the Queen would order both Callum and Ruthie out of Her Realm, in which case Ruthie should still be in the cave with Callum anyway.

From Acts I and II, information which has already been shared regarding The nature of The Hologram Dimensions;

1: The Hologram Dimensions has been described as a central point where the Universe moves out from that central position in every direction, without end. "All That Is" is another name for The Hub of Hologram Dimensions.

2: Every Realm in The Hologram Universe has at its helm, some type of Entity and much can be ascertained about that Entity by observing Its Creation.

3: The vastness of The Hologram Dimensions means that there is literally an infinite number of places

There is no rule about how many characters or things you can create, or even how a player chooses to use or abuse them. There are, however, consequences, which I had the impression you understood, when you accepted responsibility for Callum's position, and told him so.

The Generated Message didn't name Ruthie, but naming something doesn't mean one created it.
Entities who Create their Realms, are by that fact, the controllers, and this is evident in the story-lines.

My asking you to put it to one side for now has to do with your apparent confusion as to the nature of The Holographic Dimensions, in order that this issue doesn't become blown out of proportion and an unnecessary distraction.

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Post #42

Post by The Tanager »

When you say that I'm unwilling to follow the story line, you are clearly missing the point. If I was claiming that the story line didn't present you an opportunity to control my character, you'd be making a valid response, but I'm clearly not doing that. The point is that I'm objecting that you have developed the story line in a way that gives you an excuse to control my character.

Even if that development is the result of your previous decision to create the laws of this fictional space. That being the creator of the whole environment and setting up entities in charge of each realm was not clearly presented as an exception to the rule that we can't control each other's creations. If you want the rule to be that "all those who aren't William cannot control the actions of other's created characters and William reserves the right to control the actions of your characters, if they exist within a specific realm, by being the creator of the character in charge of that realm" then say that. If you want to now change the rule to say that, at least ask if I'm willing to agree to that before holding me to following it.

As to abandoning Callum, yes I made that choice for various reasons and I have decided to give it another go in spite of those reservations. That has nothing to do with my objection to you controlling my character. Your rule is that we can't control each other's creations. It is not "you can't control each other's creations unless you work it into the story line" or the more narrow one above where you have that control that others don't. When I realized my error in grabbing Master ColdFire, I tried to work that error into the story line by saying it was a different being that Callum thought was Master ColdFire, but wasn't. You didn't like that. You made my character something else. I fought back against that controlling of the story line for awhile, but then gave up the fight. Following the story line wasn't good enough reason for me to break your rule, but your choice to control my character (not even a different character that is confused for my character) fits the story line you came up with, so it's good to go. Hypocrisy. This is silly. I am willing to skip past this hiccup, just admit it and hold yourself to the same standard you want to hold me to.

As to abandoning Ruthie, I wasn't. I made the choice to keep her in the realm, disregarding Ngaru's orders and willing to accept the consequences you wanted to try to impose as controller of Ngaru, working with the story line. If those consequences includes "William gets to control your character," then you need to make that a clear rule from the beginning or ask if the rule can be changed to that. You have had creatures leave the story line (to later return or possibly never return), so are you also being irresponsible in likewise "abandoning" them as you think I tried to do with Ruthie?

You say you don't want to blow this out of proportion, but it is necessary for you to clear this up because you are coming across as a controlling hypocrite that can't admit you've made a mistake, which were some of my reservations to continuing this experience with you. And I honestly don't say that with malice or out of emotion. I don't think you intend to come across this way and I'm giving you a chance to clear it up or admit your mistake and correct them. Are you wanting the rule against character control to remain as worded? Are you wanting more freedom for yourself in that regard as creator of the environment?

And I welcome you to be as forthright as possible in thinking I'm being irresponsible through an action I've taken and allow me the opportunities to clarify my motivations or to admit mistakes and all of that on other issues. I feel you have done that at times and I've responded, although there still seems to be some latent distrust from you that may still need to be hashed out.

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Post #43

Post by The Tanager »

And in continuing to try to honor your creations, I have left it for you to say what is in the envelope as the current story line has gotten to.

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Post #44

Post by William »

The only things I chose for now to respond to Tanager, is to ask you to give an example of any Character I have abandoned and to remind that Manu Iti and Wiremu are dealing with the issue of abandonment of Callum which was created when you chose to leave the Role-Play.

Mani Iti and Wiremu together set about trying to locate Callum, and were having difficulty doing so. No doubt that would have been sorted eventually, but then you decided to return to the Role-Play and made the job easier.

As to Callum's present predicament, Manu Iti is helping him to get through it. I understand that you might feel that your Character is in a controlled position, but remind you that your actions placed him there, and while he cannot presently go freely hither and tither and has to follow maps and instructions, he still has personal choice as to where he will go in relation to these.

And finally, I will remind you also, that while you believe this is a fictional world, as far as The Story-Line goes;
  • "Wiremu created The Hub of Hologram Dimensions based upon his understanding that when an individual human completes their life and death sentence in the Physical Universe, they will then experience "The Next Phase/Level" and the experience of that level will be determined and unfold based upon the individuals own expectations, beliefs and attitudes which they nurtured in The Physical Universe Prison.

    Thus, The Hub of Hologram Dimensions is the place Wiremu wants to next experience which is why he is nurturing the idea as "a possible/probable outcome" and understands it as a Real Place, given his associate understanding of Human Imagination able to affect "things' which can be experienced as real."
Which is to say, it is no more or less fictional than any belief anyone might have in relation to what they expect to unfold for them after they leave this present experience.

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Post #45

Post by The Tanager »

Again you misunderstand what I've said. I don't think you have abandoned any character. I also have taken ownership of abandoning Callum. My point is that what I did with Ruthie was not abandoning her anymore than what you have done multiple times in this story. When was the last time we heard from Penny Tupence? The owl? I don't consider that abandonment; neither do you. My choice for Ruthie to stay in Ngaru's realm against Ngaru's wishes is no different (in that sense).

That is the focus of my charge of you controlling my character. I don't think you are trying to control Callum's actions. You controlled Ruthie's actions. Just like I didn't think about it with Master ColdFire, I think this was an innocent error on your part. I tried to work my error into the storyline in a way that would honor that rule. You didn't like that. I eventually gave in. You will not admit your error and either erase it from the story or work the change into the story line.

Your rule is that we don't control each other's characters. There are two people that create characters in this story: you and me. Ruthie is my created character regardless of the heirarchy of the realm of the cats.

If you continue to justify your actions in controlling my creation, Ruthie, when that is a clear violation of the rule in question, as you, yourself, have presented that rule, then this is hypocrisy. Admit and correct your mistake of having Ruthie follow Callum into the cave.

If you want to change the rule to give yourself access to control my characters created in a realm you have created to "keep the story line," then admit that and change the rule for this needed exception. I will still continue my role in this story and abide by the changed rule.

I am willing not to abandon these characters, if you will clear this up. As you see, I don't care which choice you make, I just need to clearly know what your choice is.

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Post #46

Post by William »

My choice is this then.

You go back to when you first mentioned Ruthie, and edit your post to reflect without a doubt that you created that character. So that the reader can clearly see that certainly it was indeed you who created Ruthie.

Once you have done that, I will make the changes to said post and...I will edit my subsequent posts to suit, as you also will have to do with any of your posts which will be affected by those changes.

Penny Tuppence is still in The Gem with Manu Iti, as The Story-Line clearly shows.

The Owl's name is "The Ruru", and went to play with her Family of Friends, as The Story-Line clearly shows.

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Post #47

Post by The Tanager »

If I have to mention that I'm creating Ruthie in the story line, that will sound very awkward, story line wise. Not only that, you'd have to also do that in every single instance of a creation you have brought into the story. The Ruru, Penny Tupence, Master ColdFire, the Gem, etc., etc. That's silly. It's clear to any reader that I brought Ruthie into the story and that you brought those other characters into the story line. We don't need to edit our posts this way.

All it takes (if you don't want to nuance the control-of-other's-characters-rule to allow for your actions to align with how you want this reality to be set up, if, say, inhabitants of a realm must obey the entity ruling that realm and have no freedom to disobey) is to edit post 65 and we can be done with this. Any future readers need not even be aware of whichever error you want to correct.

As post 64 has it, the reader is aware that Ruthie returns to the realm she lives, doing whatever she normally does in that realm. There is plenty of each character's lives that the reader knows nothing about directly. You are free, as Ngaru's creator, to make new posts having Ngaru deal with Ruthie's disobedience, if you wish, or leave the reader to guess what happens. If it gets to the point where you want Ngaru to jail her or kill her or whatever, I'll work with you on that to fit what would happen in this realm; I won't make Ruthie escape Ngaru's punishments, if you don't want her to, or anything like that, because I didn't and I don't want to use Ruthie for some power game between us, if that is what you are thinking I'm trying to do. I envision my character, Ruthie, to be a strong, caring individual. One that will refuse to be used as a spy, facing the consequences should there be any. It's no more or less than that for me.

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Post #48

Post by William »

Ordinarily I would agree, and certainly I had no problem with you bringing the Character into the Story-Line and in that way being the Characters Creator.

From my perspective, how it unfolded brought about a nuance which I had to work with, trying to figure out what the unidentified 'furry companion' was which had been with Callum "these past couple of days", and the only clue I had to go on was that this unnamed creature "rubs its head upon Callum's shoulder", and that Callum refers to her as "Ruthie". [Post#9]

Before and after this post, the Story-Line has it that Manu Iti is following what he believes is Callum's 'Signature' which it is subsequently revealed was actually the signature of The Wampus Cats and it was eventually worked out, these Cats had been displaced due to Callum being made to disappear and reappear, as with The Wayward Stick.

So it was built into the Story-Line by way of explanation that - like the stick - Callum had ended up in the Tabula Rasa and then somehow ended up in The Realm of The Cats, causing the displacement.

Already in post#11 Manu Iti is putting the pieces together and we have the displaced Wampas Cat and Kitten.

In post#12 you make it even more obvious that Ruthie is most likely a Cat, which shows me that you are 'going along with the story-line' which is developing.

At this stage Manu Iti is still not sure exactly where Callum actually is and still does not know that Callum has been placed back into the story as his Creator (You) decided to continue playing him.

At this point the assumption is that Callum will be with the Wampus Cat and Kitten, only Callum has not mentioned the presence of the Wampus Kitten...

What is known is that there is no backstory on Ruthie and it was taken by me that Callum awoke and Ruthie was just there, and that he was very pleased for the company, given the ordeal he had just gone through, much of it a mystery to him.

Manu Iti thinks that the problem of finding Callum is near an end, but it works out that Callum is not with The Mother Cat and Kitten, so where is he?

This is where it is worked out that somehow there was a displacement caused by The Tanagers actions with Callum.

From my perspective I am trying to piece together the unfolding Story, but am being given scant information from you through Callum's Character, as to exactly how to proceed...I turn to the Generated Messages and have Manu Iti remember that "Cat" was mentioned before all this, and this allows me to think that you might have written Ruthie into the story because Cat was mentioned in said Generated Messages.

So yes, I have been aware that it can be said that you created Ruthie and placed her in the story, or maybe you were going along with - got your idea from - said Generated Message.

This meant that the advent of Ruthie could have been the creation of The Mind Behind The Messages - as this too is part of The Story-Line.

After it become obvious that Callum is not being used to give feedback information into the story-line which would help Manu Iti puzzle things out, as he so obvious is doing in The Story - I had Ngaru Whaea and all The Cats Gather to where Callum was waiting to be rescued. I had The Queen order "The One Called Ruthie" to come to Her I tentatively - very subtly - control Ruthie-who-might-be-The-Tanagers-creation to see if a complaint might then be lodged.

No complaint was forth-coming, so this gave me a clue I could work with, that perhaps indeed, "Ruthie" was "QueenBee's" Creation...or as I have been referring to "Her", as "The Generated Message" since you had complained that Scientifically I should not say that there is some Entity Mind behind the process.

But I still wasn't sure.

So I developed a contingency which required writing her into The Story because I was not sure if Callum would take Ruthie with him, or leave her behind and since it had not been established who actually created Ruthie...from my perspective the possibility that QueenBee had placed the idea into The Tanagers thought processes through The Generated Message...I had to remain open to that possibility being the actual case.


But how to prove it...

I look for a way in which to have The Tanager react and say for sure 'Who Created Ruthie'.

As it turns out, placing the idea of The Queen of The Cat Realm being able to spy on the activities of The Character Callum, appeared to garner said reaction.

Technically speaking it can be argued that to possess another Player's Character breaks the rule of interfering with said character...but no protest at that was made, and it became apparent you were willing to leave Ruthie behind, rather than have Callum spied upon in such a manner.

This itself adds evidence to the possibility that Ruthie is QueenBees creation, or to put that in a more scientific language - Ruthie was first mentioned through the Generated Message Process, and subconsciously picked up by you - The Tanager - as 'a seed planted' and you yourself were not too sure as to who should be controlling Ruthie...and your answer to this was to 'set her free' to live her own life however that might turn out.

Even, as you have since revealed, this means that she might be punished and even killed! You are content with any outcome as you have - in effect - 'washed your hands' of Ruthie and don't even want to know about her fate.

But, since you insist that Ruthie is your creation, you insist on ownership of Her, You will continue to be informed of her movements.

I Will have Nga Whaea take responsibility for Ruthie - adopting Her and thus controlling Ruthies movements, as an additional Rule of this Hologram Reality - that any Characters which are abandoned, belong to The Creator of whichever Realm the abandonment occurs within.

That is now a Rule.

However, I will give you the opportunity to have Control of Ruthie as Her Creator, and have full responsibility for Her movements etc...and all that will mean is a very slight edit where you have Ruthie choose to remain in Callum's company and together they go through the Deactivated Gate and into The Cave.

How does all that sound for you Tanager?

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Post #49

Post by The Tanager »

Yes, I decided to have a furry companion keeping Callum company and safe because of what happened to him story-wise due to my decision to stop our engagement through this story. Who knows what dangers would be there for the sleeping Callum? In post #11 you brought up the idea of a Wampus Cat signature and tied that (possibly) to Callum's signature. You seemed to leave open the possibility that this was not the case, but I was okay with that choice and, in post 12, described her in a way that she could be a cat. Now, I didn't state it outright in case I misunderstood your bringing in the wampus cat, giving you further chance to clarify your intentions there. In post 13, you are leaving that question open still, but you bring in the kitten as well for the first time. At that point, since I didn't say anything about a kitten originally, I figure you are trying to do something else with them, but I decide to call Ruthie a cat as well, just not the wampus cat and kitten your characters were following.

I definitely feel you on how hard it is to create an environment together, not having as much info as you want from the other person, but that is how it is. There are many things I would have done differently, story-wise, had I known where you were eventually going to take the story line. I would say to ask me if you feel you need more information to move the story line forward. Although, like with me, some of the moves may be unexpected in ways that one would never think of asking a question that would help them see that kind of thing is where the other wants to move the discussion.

So, I did not get the idea from the generated message. But even if I did, Ruthie would still be my creation and your rule would keep you from controlling her in any way. You could write things to suggest I go in a certain direction or contact me directly, but it would be my choice, if I catch your suggestions, to write that into my character.

You did take control of Ruthie in post 35, against your rule, and I chose to let it slide, because it wasn't that big of a deal. I was okay with your choice. I had no idea that you were questioning my creation of this character in the ways you were and you said nothing about that thought process. Eventually, I decide to not go along with one of your controllings of my character because I felt it went against Ruthie's character. You didn't know what I thought of Ruthie's character, but you should not have been trying to control her in the first place as to avoid this kind of possibility. If you have a question, then ask me to clarify it instead of breaking your rule against controlling other people's characters in order to secretly test theories out.

I did not have a reaction until you wrote into the storyline that I was trying to control a creation that wasn't my own, which is ridiculous, as Ruthie was obviously my creation that, somehow, you came to the conclusion that you gained control of her without my consent or my breaking a previous rule. A generated message that mentions "Cat" is not a creation of a cat named Ruthie, whatever contigencies you want to work out in your mind.

As to me being content with any outcome, I'm saying that as the creator of Ngaru you have the right to create consequences for Ruthie, which I don't have control over because of the power structure you want for this realm of the cats (and the other realms). I will control Ruthie within that framework. As to knowing her fate, she is a made up character and has no fate unless we make one up for her. I'm willing to work together to give her one.

As to your demand on giving me back control of Ruthie, I will not meet it. Your desire for her was an attempt to control my creation, not for the first time, but this was the first choice I did not want to go through. You claim you want co-creators in this thread, so don't try to control or override my choices of my characters. Work the story around them, unless I break a rule. I didn't break a rule with Ruthie.

You can make the abandonment rule, but I have not abandoned Ruthie in any way, so it could not apply. "Abandoning" does not mean "not making the choice William wants for the character." This latest attempt to control my creation, in clear violation of a rule you have made and previously enforced against me, started out, I think, as an innocent, well-intended attempt to control her to fit your picture of the story line. Your responses here after being called out on it, rather than admitting the mistake, correcting it, and us moving on has not appeared to be in that same spirit.

I am willing to continue this story with you, chalking all this up to misunderstandings, if we can show good faith with each other. The ways I can see for you to show that to me, from your end, is either:

(1) Admit your mistake of taking control of Ruthie by editing post 65, allowing me to continue to control my creation's actions. Whatever reaction you choose to write into Ngaru's character, should you think this important for the story, I will work off of.

or IF you want the no-control rule to be different

(2) Admit your mistake on not making the no-control rule what you really want it to say, by changing it to where you, as creator of a realm's ruler, can have control over all creatures of that realm.

If you do one of these and feel I need to do something to show good faith to you (that does not directly contradict your showing the above good faith to me) name it and I'll gladly do it.

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Post #50

Post by The Tanager »

I guess another version of the rule you may be desiring to have in place is that you get control over any character that we choose to not have stay with our main character. If that is what you are thinking, I'm okay with you admitting that is what the rule should have said and while I don't think it would be a good rule, I would still continue our discussion with it in place.

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