Musing on Relationships

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

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Musing on Relationships

Post #1

Post by William »

My messenger signals I have incoming news from Wiremu. It is good to hear his voice again...

Wiremu: I wonder why folk have to argue and cannot get along and just see how we all need to work together to make this planet wholesome?"

I Poke at the fire with my staff

Manu Iti: I am here to hear. Humans are like sparks from a fire, reaching for the heavenly ones. They require some kind of poke to get activated..

A wolf howls in the distance

Wiremu: We are all here experiencing this planet in this universe. Yet for reasons not entirely clear, we are distracted by our arguments. Hindered by them, even to the death.

I place another branch on the fire.

Wiremu: Perhaps the fear of our situation would be too much to bear if we learned how to focus upon it, and so we distract ourselves...I have had another strange encounter with Callum's creator...we have fallen out as it were and he has messaged me to say that it greatly surprised him that we have a broken relationship.

Manu Iti: How do you view your relationship with Callum's creator?

Wiremu: I do not see that it is a relationship or ever has been one. Not because of anything in particular but because our interaction never developed into something I would refer to as a 'relationship'...

Manu Iti: Perhaps that is because you view Friendship as the ultimate form of Relationship?

Wiremu: Yes. But our relationship has never been that, so didn't "break".

Manu Iti: It has always been "broken?"

Wiremu: In the sense that it has never developed into a Friendship, so is not even regarded by me to being a relationship.

Manu Iti: An acquaintance and nothing more than that.

Wiremu: Correct. And in that, nothing in which to feel greatly surprised or astonished about when disagreement which is not fixable happens.

Manu Iti: Yet he reaches out to try and mend things?

Wiremu: Apparently. But there is nothing to mend as nothing was broken. The relationship has never been a Friendship.

Manu Iti: So in that sense, non-Friendship is a broken thing to begin with?

Wiremu: Not if it wasn't a Friendship to begin with. If it was a Friendship, then yes - it would be broken and thus could require fixing.

Manu Iti: So perhaps Callum's creator thinks you were once Friends with him then, and that is why he reaches out to 'fix the Friendship" he thinks once existed and is now broken?

Wiremu: Perhaps...I invited him to The Campfire by sending him this picture...and he replied that I need to translate the image into words for him to understand me.


I view the picture Wiremu sends. The moons brightness dissipates as a cloud passes in front of it...
Image
Manu Iti: It appears from what you tell me, that he does not understand you, yet thinks that you and he are Friends...if you were, then he would have immediately understood your invitation, because he would know you.

If he does turn up, I will attempt to explain to him your idea of Friendship
Congrats on your marriage to Lindy by the way!


Wiremu: Thank you! Now there is a real Friendship!

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #61

Post by The Tanager »

I listen to William's questions and his conversation with the Voice. I breath warmth into my hands and rub them together. Various thoughts go through my mind. I need to hear more of the reasons William believes as he does. I also wonder how differently we may look at the idea of a relationship that comes up in his words.

Jason: I have many questions. I think you are right that we go in different directions early on in our beliefs. Those foundational beliefs need to be addressed in order to understand each other better.

What is the distinction between an embodied mind and a mind embodied? Why are those not the same? Why can't both worlds come together in the unity that is me? Why think the body has nothing to do with who we are?


I pause, wondering whether to stop there or to bring up the broader issue about relationships. I decide to go ahead and bring it up now, so that I don't lose the thought. As my body gets older, I don't seem to remember things as well as I used to.

Jason: You told the Voice that you don't think our relationship can be built upon because we identify ourselves differently. That sounds like you are saying strong relationships can only be had by those who agree in their beliefs. Is that what you mean? If so, then why do you think that? If not, then what do you mean? Why can't we build upon our relationship in spite of our disagreements?

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #62

Post by William »

As I sit contemplating what Vimmy revealed to me, Jason breaks the silence with a number of questions. I ponder on how best to answer...

William: I explained the distinction between an embodied mind and a mind embodied, when I said that an embodied mind is not the same as a mind embodied in relation to how one might see oneself.

I take another sip of brew

William: The difference is in how one perceives the self. If one is the mind - or "soul" as you also called the mind - then one is that which uses the other. If one is the body, then one sees the soul as separate from ones identity - as not being part of one's identity...as something which one has rather than something which one is. You have a mind, rather than you are the mind.

The body and thus the brain, are instruments which you - the mind - use.

Otherwise the mind becomes that which the body and brain use...and in that, tend to misuse because the mind is not understood in any way but as an instrument that the flesh uses...That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit - the immaterial - thus the mind... is spirit.

The idea of being 'born again' has to do with one identifying as the flesh, rather than as the spirit - and that is generally the case with most every human mind experiencing being within human flesh...and being born again transforms ones understanding of ones self in relation to being spirit.

Both worlds can come together in the unity that is the individual, when the individual realizes that they are not the flesh but the spirit within the flesh.

Why think the body has nothing to do with who we are? Because it only has something to do with what we experience. What we experience is not 'who we are' and never can be. The body is like a space suit an astronaut puts on in order to experience being out in the upper atmosphere and beyond. One would not expect the astronaut to self identify with the suit. One would be concerned if the astronaut did claim to be 'the suit' or thought that he was both the suit and that which wears the suit.

I do think our relationship cannot be built upon because we identify ourselves differently. I am saying strong relationships can only be had by those who agree in their perception of who they are. If we cannot agree that we are spirit, we are on different paths - and as Jesus said - and I translate ;

"Follow me or don't...but don't claim to be my friend if you don't follow me"...so if we do not follow [agree with] each other, the relationship can never be more than a shadowy outline of true relationship because there is no common ground to build upon.

It is not so much sharing beliefs - if anything beliefs have to be snipped away. It is about sharing true perspective. It is about investment of time and energy etc...I see no reason to settle for less than the genuine. Why can't we build upon our relationship in spite of our disagreements? Because it wouldn't be genuine - it would be half-arsed shallow charade and thus open to abuse.


As I finish, Vinny chimes in...

Vinny: Welcoming For The Purpose Of...

William: For the purpose of discussing "Relationships and how they are built."

Vinny: It is a slippery path of snake-oil.

William: That depends on how aligned the one from the other is...

Vinny: Put That On The List

William: Done.

Vinny: Sanctioned The Gem Think In Terms Of...Respecting The God of The Bible The Roles Move On Solemnly Dilatory Conspiracy Emotions The Crystal Clear Waters River Tetragrammaton...

I turn to Jason...

William: As Vinny has now reminded me...I wrote something recently - I will read it out as it has something to do with all of this...with your and my current inability to build relationship with each other.

I begin to read the words on my tablet...

I said: "I suppose really you are referring to degrees of insanity. ."

Someone replied: "All humans are insane, it's just that some of them are more aware of their insanity than others. Some know they are insane, others do not.."

I replied to that: "Personally I think that the first step toward recovery is discovering that and dealing with it, by admitting it."

Someone replied: "They all pretend to know what they are talking about, when in truth, there's just empty words spontaneously flowing out of the pie hole like barking dogs."

I replied to that: "Appearances can be deceiving yes?
But there are ways of getting the dogs to stop barking and pay attention. It relation to human beings, they are human beings. As such, they require a different formula in relation to shutting up and listening. For starters it has to be really significantly interesting."

Someone replied: "All babble and nonsense which makes no difference to what is always actual real reality, life will go on and on, same as it ever was, same as it ever was...IS... long after humans have lost their voice forever."

I replied to that: "That kinda talk reminds me of YHWH. He is presented as a being who doesn't think much of human beings. Maybe he has a point, but one also has to consider the Wise Wolves among the Dogs. I think YHWH wants to preserve those ones.
Judges 7:5"


I finish reading and add...

William: It is something of how sorting is done...I call it "Preparing for the host of Midian"

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #63

Post by The Tanager »

As William answers, I note different issues coming up. Mind-body. Born again. Friendship.

Jason: As to the strongest of relationships, I agree with what you've said but I think there is a genuine relationship that can be had, not as strong, yet still strong nonetheless, between us even if we never agree on this perspective.

But it would take both of us being willing. You don't agree that it is even worth pursuing, though. Okay. Let's make sure we can't come to an agreement here, then.

What I don't understand is why you think there are only two options: a mind that uses the body and a body that has a mind. Why not a mind-body?


I look back at the sphere.

Jason: The sphere. Is it one 'thing' or is it the center, the Source it was called, using the rest of the area? Is the thing just a two-dimensional point, or the whole thing, making it 3-D?

I look back at William.

Jason: You seem to say that one is the mind, not the body and that, by realizing this, both worlds come together but that doesn't make sense to me because you are distinguishing the mind as the real thing and the body as something else; not both one.

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #64

Post by William »

As Jason gives me his reply I am reminded of Vinny mentioning Simulacra.

William: You may or may not be aware of Simulacra and Simulation Jason, so I encourage you to look into that information.

Nicodemus, you might recall, also saw mystery in Jesus' saying one has to go through being "Born 'Again'". They are not unrelated issues...

If 'born of water' is reference to the material and 'born of spirit' is reference to the immaterial, one can ascertain that there is a process which first involves being born into the material world and secondly involves from that, being born into the realization that one is indeed immaterial experiencing the material and not at first understanding - or otherwise being informed - that one is NOT the material, but rather, one is the immaterial Being, experiencing the material.

You agree with what I've said re the strongest of relationships, but you also think there is a genuine relationship that can be had, not as strong, yet still strong nonetheless, between Us even if We never agree on this perspective.

But it also requires Me liking the idea. I am not so convinced.
Not that I am saying You are not a pleasant enough personality to be around, for indeed you are....mostly...not annoying...

The opportunity to engage in more genuine relationship is more attractive to Me. I will not say that I do not recognize the potential that could develop between Us, but prefer to see if it is possible for Us to come to agreement in relation to understanding One Another as immaterial Beings experiencing the material. This, because there is more scope for opportunity to excel within such shared understanding, rather than settle for the more common garden - and somewhat mundane - variety of relationship.

In that, it would become evidence that such can be achieved. For Myself, I require evidence that Relationship is worth investing in...before proceeding...otherwise this - Our relationship to date - will simply continue being Ouroboros and getting nowhere in particular for the effort.


I use my tablet to project an image...

Image

William:What You say You don't understand, is "why I think there are only two options: a mind that uses the body and a body that has a mind." You ask Me "Why not a mind-body?"

My short answer is because that is how human to human relationship is generally played out.

There is nothing unusual or peculiar in such normally acceptable practice. It is superficial. The world generally operates at that level of relationship due to the Self identification people are taught to believe in. "Body and mind" is not too far removed from the idea that we are really only our brains - aka "atheism".

Theism - I think - demands much more from us, and by reeducating our selves to identify as being the immaterial - the mind - the soul - everything changes in relation to that perspective.

Also the ordinary type of relationship You refer to, tends to force Us to repeat Ourselves.


A wolf howls, and I think of Alpha. She is such a beautiful soul.

William: Did You not understand my mention of the Astronaut and his space suit?

What I find in such relationship which You appear happy enough to indulge within, is that having to repeat myself or find another way of trying to explain something, is tedious and for all that, an unwise investment of My time and effort. It has proven to achieve nothing in particular which is useful in building relationship. Its activity I liken to liquification.

As to Your question regarding the sphere, as Manu Iti explained it to You, it is a 3D image adequately representing a whole process, even that within that whole process are a myriad of seemingly unrelated event-strings. Processes in themselves. Processes within the overall Process.

The center represents the Source [The Original Creator] and within the whole, there are various creators, and this is because..."like The Source so too, the 'sons' of The Source".
The immaterial is creative within the creation, because The Source is The Creator and thus, is creative.

That it doesn't make sense to you because I am distinguishing the mind as the real thing and the body as something else - not both the same - is because they are not both the same.


I pause and finish my brew before continuing.

William:One is the Creator and the other is the creation. One is absolutely real and the other is not. The non absolutely real - the creation - can be experienced as a reality because the one experiencing it is absolutely real, not because that which is being experienced is absolutely real.

As I mentioned, the human form is like a suit that the Soul wears in order that It is then enabled to experience the Universe it is within. That which the suit is designed to allow the Soul to experience.

The suit and indeed the whole universe is not real. It is only experienced by what is actually real.

The Creator Consciousness is that which is absolutely real. The Creator consciousness is the only 'thing' which is actually absolutely real.
In the demystification, We thus understand that the of 'thing' which is absolutely real, is actually the immaterial. Not the material.

Everything else which is created by said Creator consciousness, is not real because it has a beginning. And in the case of the body, also has an end.
In that, the Creator Consciousness within human form, is limited by its environment - an environment which also includes the body it is within - and misidentifies what it really is as a consequence and then proceeds to stack images onto what it is experiencing as 'reality' which in turn effectively covers up the nature of that experience with misinformation regarding the experience being had.


I realize that I have spoken far too many words and that the likelihood of Jason understanding my attempts to explain to him may only provide him with more reason to remain mystified.

William:What I am keen to see is if the circular process can be eliminated. The spiral process is more attractive to me as far as building relationship goes...Do a search on the subject of Simulacra and Simulation and have a read up on that.

I then project an image of the preferred path I am speaking to Jason about...
Image

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #65

Post by William »

As Jason takes his time in thinking about what I said to him, I decide to contact Manu Iti, who informs me that he has made an interesting discovery regarding what it was that wounded Jason's foot. I decide to join him and view for myself what Mani Iti discovered.

William: I am just going to go and see Manu Iti as he informs me that he has made an interesting discovery related to what wounded your foot Jason. You can forward any reply you have to me, and I will get back to you with my own.

I am not sure if Jason has heard me as he appears to be in an almost trancelike state of thinking, and has been for many hours now.

Collecting a few items, I make my way over to The Gem I received as my own to use, and in moments am transported from the Hub Campfire and connect with Manu Iti's Gem, which I observe has another Gem also attached to it.

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #66

Post by The Tanager »

As William responds, he seems a little agitated at having to repeat himself. I can understand that, but I think it is misguided. I also keep thinking about our greeting. After I ponder on his thought for what seems but a few moments, William says Manu Iti has made a discovery about what wounded my foot. Excellent. William leaves but tells me to respond anyway.

Jason: Two things that I want to focus on. First, you feel like you have to repeat yourself a lot in our conversations. I don't think you need to. I understand, at least to some degree, the various analogies you have presented. My question, however, is usually why think that such-and-such is a good analogy of the truth? I want to know the reason behind your belief, not analogies meant to help me figure out your view. I'm not asking you to repeat yourself, I'm asking you to support your position so that we can see if we can come to agreement on a foundational issue we disagree upon. I see no support given. The astronaut-suit analogy is not support. That you think Jesus' words to Nicodemus is related to simulation is not support. I am asking for your evidence for your view being true, your reasonings.

Second, you think such agreement is vital for a worthwhile relationship. Help me to straighten something out about that. Remember when I asked you what brought you here? You answered unconditional love. What does that mean to you? Honestly, it seems that your love makes conditions, namely, shared belief to be fully released.


I shift forward in my seat.

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #67

Post by William »

I finally receive a message from Jason explaining that he does not ask me to repeat myself because he does not understand what I say, but because he does not see any supporting evidence for what I say. I find that a very strange and roundabout way of asking for supporting evidence.
I send him my reply...focusing on one aspect of his message to me.


William: Since you were invited to come to This Place to discuss how relationships are built, I do not see the connection between that and what you are now explaining Jason.

You claim now to want evidence from me to support my understanding - for it is not "belief" as you put it - that I am not the body I occupy, I am the '"Soul" or "Mind" - the "immaterial" which is occupying the "suit" or "Human Instrument."

What concerns me about this demand from you, is that you have already agreed that the mind exists as real, even that it is immaterial.
So if you demand such evidence from me, in my understanding this to be the case, are you saying that you don't understand it to be the case, but believe it to be the case, even that you have seen no evidence that this is the case?


I ponder on how Jason let me waste my time explaining things in more detail and then ignoring those things because I did not give supporting evidence for those things. This in turn reminds me of why I began to doubt his sincerity...and I begin to understand the symbolism of what has ben revealed to us regarding that which caused his foot to become injured at the start of his fist step onto The Bridge of Forgiveness...yes - it makes sense...I share this with Manu Iti, who also agrees that the symbolism is connected...

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #68

Post by William »

After some discussion with Manu Iti regarding the question of unconditional love, I message Jason again.

William: As to your question regarding unconditional love Jason, It was a greeting specific to your understanding that the way God created the universe and placed human beings within it is the product of a loving act, whereas you cannot see any loving act in the idea that we have been placed into a virtual reality.

It is this difference which forces conditions into any event. From my perspective, I cannot see any sense in investing time in trying to find common ground in which we can agree. I see no lack of love in either position, whereas you do, so it is your seeing which is the cause of the conditional grounds manifesting.

That is why I focused on the idea we are - in realty - the immaterial soul which uses the body which is a simulated object - made in the image of God but not really God. It is the immaterial which is God.

By focusing upon that, I thought we might be able to agree to common ground in which to build genuine Friendship upon.

Was I wrong to think that?


I press "Send" and then turn my attention to the scene below me, as Manu Iti explains to me what it is I am witnessing.

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #69

Post by The Tanager »

Jason: William you are going down a path of your own making. You think my actions are creating the path but they absolutely are not. A lack of clarity on my part may be making it easier for you to make and follow that path but you still have the option of asking clarifying questions instead of wrongly accusing me of insincerity, once again. In all of this, I'm not angry. I'm still approaching you with what most people mean by 'unconditional love'. I am willing your good with no strings attached. I am acting towards you in all the goodness I know. I am placing no conditions on you. I'm being sincere.

I am fine judging things as loving and unloving. I'm also always willing to change my mind on my judgments. I didn't let you waste your time explaining things and then ignore those. You said we can't have a genuine relationship unless we agree on the belief that we are minds using bodies. You've been sharing your view of who we really are. I'm asking for support to see if we can reach that agreement you require for further relationship.

I've agreed the mind is immaterial and is real. That's not what I'm asking evidence for. Our disagreement, as I understand it right now, is that I said we are mind-body composites and you disagreed with that saying that we are simply a mind that uses the body.

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Re: Relationships - how are they built?

Post #70

Post by William »

After reading Jason's message of reply to me, I write a quick reply and send it to him.

William: Jason

Thank you for coming along and contributing your thoughts regarding relationships and how they are built. If you want, I can give you a ride to The Realm of Judgement, as it is a hard journey on foot and one cannot leave the Hub the same way one arrived...well one can but in doing so from that side, it becomes The Bridge of Judgement.

Let me know, and I will come and meet you when you have crossed over again...


After sending Jason the message, I continue to discuss these latest events with Manu Iti, who suggests that we go to the fireside and be present with Jason there.

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