Musing On The Mystic

Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life.

Moderator: William

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10483
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Musing On The Mystic

Post #1

Post by William »

Image

William: You said you think my curiosity and question is tangential to a discussion on the historicity of the Resurrection and would be better served with its own thread. So here we are...nice to see you back at the Fireside My Friend.

Smiling, I reach for a log and place it on the fire. I sip on my brew and then continue.

William: As I explained earlier, since Jesus was an Eternal Spirit, he couldn't actually die, so it had to be the appearance of dying.

Jason: This was part of why I moved your theory out from explanation (2) in step C and gave it the number (10). The typical “apparent death” theory claims that Jesus’ body only appeared to die. You seem to be saying the body did die, but Jesus, as an Eternal Spirit, didn’t. That point alone doesn’t distinguish you from my theory but other things obviously do, which we’ll get to.

I ponder Jason's explanation for a few minutes and then reply.

William: Yes - taken on the premise that all the bible stories are true in relation to the authors data of experience and subsequent points of view, Jesus Human body did die. The explanation for why and how it was made livable again, involves mysticism.

I take another sip of brew and restate something I said earlier.

William: You equated my understanding, to Jesus lying. I explained that Jesus was simply going along with the beliefs of his followers at the time, because his agenda was focused on his overall mission and that it was not a case of lying but of not being able to tell the whole truth because of the belief systems in his followers which prevented them from being able to handle the whole truth.

Jason: First, that was when I thought you were claiming the body didn’t die. But it would still apply to your theory if you think Jesus used a new body and allowed his disciples to believe he resurrected into his previous body. Not correcting a lie is different than not telling the whole truth.

On top of that, I don’t see any benefit in Jesus doing this. The disciples’ belief system was already being blown up by his resurrection. This kind of gnostic ideas already seemed to be around and gained in popularity in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Plus, the Christian movement was committed to the teachings of Jesus to the point that they rejected these gnostic ideas as heresy. Jesus lying about his resurrection seems to be working against what you say his mission was.


Te Ruru sounds off from the nearby trees. Always a signal that things are about to get even more interesting.

William: People are often enough frightened by their imaginations.
I know that seems a random thing for me to say. I say it now though, so that I can refer back to it as examples offer themselves that opportunity for me to do so.

We do not know to what extent Jesus made efforts to correct the beliefs which allowed the followers to lie [to their individual selves through their belief systems] but we do know that there is evidence that he may have done just that...but it is not evidence we can find just by reading the bible.

No two followers reacted to the resurrection event in the same manner. Jesus is dealing with individuals.

As to the Gnostic ideas, I became aware of these much later on into my conversion from the mundane into the mystic - and that process of approach was not viewed by me as "mystical", until many years later, and in that - upon reading some of the Gnostic ideas, I realized that there was some truth to be gained therein because my own experience confirmed that already.

So then, once I embarked upon a more detail study of the evolution of the Christian Church, I had to ask the question as to why that institution chose - not only to exclude the Gnostic information from the authorized version of the truth that institution wanted the world to have - but to make efforts to completely suppress the Gnostic ideas as heretical, and on occasion use that law to legally imprison and murder anyone suspected of being heretic.

So I keep the question "Is this what Jesus wanted his Church to do?" and thus, I commune with Christians in order to possibly uncover the answer.


The fire cracks loudly and a pebble-sized piece of the log I had placed on it jumps out and lands near my feet. I observe how blue the flame appears, and realize it is no ordinary flame...I reach down and pick it up, and it is cold to my touch, as I knew it would be.

William: One thing that I find very interesting in regard to that, is how Gnosticism has survived the 20-odd centuries of active suppression, and its secrets have continued to be shared.

Jason: I need to make sure I understand what you are claiming in your theory. You seem to be saying that Jesus’ body died and then Jesus’ post-mortem appearances were through a different body. Is that correct?

I think I have responded to you on the proposed absurdities that would follow there and you haven’t directly responded back on those points. I will make my positive case after making sure I'm understanding your theory correctly.


As Jason finishes his sentence, a whisper of cool air circulates briefly through the encampment and the small blue flame rises from object I hold. I laugh.

William: I argue that another body might have been used, which explains the seeming confusion his followers had - depending upon which story one reads about the event - in relation to them not recognizing the form.
Certainly, it did not take too long for them to recognize the Spirit using the form, was that of the one they had followed throughout all those months.


I rise and move toward The Whole. I slide back the stone covering it, and place the object with the blue flame, into it. I replace the stone and then return to my seat at the Fireside.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10483
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #41

Post by William »

William: Very well. I trust that you will be more careful with your words in future Jason. I hope the focus can now be specifically upon "Biblical Jesus - The Mystic" and Mysticism in general.

The Judge: Well it appears something approaching an amicable solution has been agreed to. It is the view of this Court that the protest from the prosecution was unfounded and therefore no trial is necessary. Case dismissed.

The Judge bangs his gavel, signifying the end of the matter.

Aleph bows to The Judge, and once more moves his forearms in small circular motions, the tips of his fingers flickering with quick movement and immediately the scene changes and we find ourselves at the fireside again.


Aleph: Well that was interesting. I am heartened that you changed your mind Jason.

Online
User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 3205
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #42

Post by The Tanager »

Jason: Yes. So, what more would you like to tell me about mysticism, William and Aleph?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10483
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #43

Post by William »

Aleph looks over to me, and I shrug.

Aleph: Well, given the recent drama Jason - since the dust is still settling...

...I would suggest that perhaps you start the ball rolling by reflecting back what we have already spoken of about that, and perhaps from there - if you have any specific questions regarding those things, we can try and answer those, before we move into further discussion on the many things to do with Mysticism.


I place another log on the fire.
I am hankering for a brew and know where I can find the ingredients. I move toward the place where The Whole should be, even that the area is covered in small bushes, and getting down on all fours, I make my way into them.

Online
User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 3205
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #44

Post by The Tanager »

I sigh. So many thoughts and emotions I want to share. Do I say it or swallow them? I'll be misunderstood. I won't be able to say things clearly or lovingly enough, the way I want. I am imperfect. Lord, please take my imperfect thoughts and words and bless them in order to bless my relationship with William towards something different than what we have now. Convict me of my wrongdoing and my false views and statements. Bless William with discernment. Here we go.

Jason: That's the thing. I have asked questions. Those questions get misunderstood as attacks and judgments, instead of me trying to wrestle with your thoughts in light of my own. You constantly question my motives and your responses come from assuming those motives are mine, when they are not. You may think something like "all I am doing is reacting to your actions and words." Like now, how you want to treat the recent "drama" as my fault, implying that I need to earn further conversation by "reflecting back," so that you can make sure I understand things right and don't have these motives you think I've shown.

And this response, itself, might get viewed in the way you continually seem to interact with me from. I still want an open, mutually beneficial relationship for us and I'll own the mistakes and misunderstandings I make but I'm not feeling the same from you, the way you try to control the narrative when reflecting back on our interactions. You are always making yourself look like the good guy and me the bad guy. I know I may be wrong on some of what I say and how I view our interactions. I'm willing to deal with that, if you take the same approach.

Now, if you want to talk about something, I'd love to talk about this underlying feature of all of our conversations.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10483
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #45

Post by William »

Aleph: I see you are still wanting to talk about something other than Mysticism Jason. Obviously you are at this time, unable to do so because you think there is 'stuff' to be cleared up first.

The opportunity to present those things you think are real concerns, was in the Courtroom, but you chose to drop your protest there and return to this place.
Yet clearly you still have issues which you hold on to which are obviously getting in the way of progress being made in relation to Musing on The Mystic.

However, those things are your things - not mine or Williams - as we are in this place for the purpose of sharing in the Mystical.

Recapping is a great way to stay on track, which I why I asked you to do so - so that I could then ascertain where best to continue...


Aleph closes his eyes and begins to hum. As he does so, the sound he makes begins to change from the one frequency, baritone - adding a harmonious contra-tenor and then tenor and final adding bass to the mix. The effect is a beautiful sound. The woods around the trio become quiet, as the creatures within them stop making their own sounds so that they may hear this strange and beautiful new sound permeating the area.

This goes on for many minutes, and the sound does not break as Aleph appears able to sustain the airflow in such a way that it appears he is doing so with the one breath.
Then the harmonies each drop out of the mix in the same order they had come in, until there is just the baritone note he began with, and then Aleph stops humming altogether and there is a pure silence over the whole area.

The effect is very calming.

After some minutes, the wildlife begins to voice its presence again.

After many more minutes, Aleph speaks.


Aleph: You believe you are spirit and body. The spirit part is immaterial, the body part is material. Which part do you think the Personality is born out of, or do you think that it is a mix of the two parts?

Online
User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 3205
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #46

Post by The Tanager »

Jason: I wish you well, William.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10483
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: Musing On The Mystic

Post #47

Post by William »

Having found The Whole and received from it the necessary items in which to make a brew, I return to the fireside.
I immediately notice something unusual in Jason's appearance. His form seems to have taken on a transparency as if he is fading from the scene.


William: Are you alright Jason?

Jason gives no reply to my question.

Aleph: I think he is leaving us. His last words to me was to say that he wished you well.

I place the kettle on the ground and then pour water into it. I gather some embers to one side of the fire and put the kettle on them, to boil.

William: Well I suppose he has pressing business elsewhere then. No doubt we will catch up with him at another time.

Aleph nods.

William: Lately, I have been thinking about the formation of personalities within the individual. I have some observations to offer about that.

Aleph: Yes. If I am not mistaken, you think of yourself as spirit within body. The spirit part which is you - is immaterial, the body part is material. Which part do you think the Personality is born out of, or do you think that it is a mix of the two parts?

William: I think that the body part is the primary aspect which creates the personality and Spirit refines that personality. I also have been thinking - as I mentioned - that what is referred to as the "personality" is really "personalities".

Once more, Aleph nods, indicating that he is interested in hearing more about my theory.

Post Reply