Condemning the Right to Die

[KenRU]

Many denominations of Christianity condemn the right to die when terminally ill. I've often wondered why anyone who holds that position could condone the suffering that results, and how that position could possibly ever be seen as a good/moral/right position to hold.

To illustrate my point and for the purposes of debate, assume the following:

The patient is terminally ill.

The patient is in pain.

The patient is of sound mind.

The patient no longer wishes to suffer, and wishes to end his/her own life.

For the sake of clarity, please use the standard and common definition for all words.


Does it just boil down to, Thou Shall Not Kill? End of conversation?

How does one justify the suffering a terminally ill patient will endure - perhaps even for years - when denying that right? It never made sense to me.



For debate:
If you are opposed to the Right To Die, please make your argument:

1) Why this is the right/good position to hold.
2) Why this position shouldn't be seen as callous, cruel and/or selfish.
3) Why it should be the law of the land.
4) Why the opposing side is wrong.

If you support the Right To Die, please make your argument:

1) Why this is the right/good position to hold.
2) Why this position shouldn't be seen as murder and just plain wrong.
3) Why it should be the law of the land.
4) Why the other side is wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

One line (I do defend the right of a person to make decisions about their lives) makes me think that you support someone's right to end their own life.

Can you elaborate for me? Thanks!

Well what I mean is that a person should be able to refuse a medical treatment, even if that refusal might lead to their death. The refusal of a certain medical treatment is essentially what Jehovah's Witnesses do because we, for biblical reasons refuse blood based treatments. This does not of course amount to a deliberate putting of our lives in danger (as there are a number of non-blood treatments that can be employed as an alternative) but often in courts we have had to fight for the right over what will or will not be done to our bodies without our concent and there this issue does concern us.

That said ...

But the next (That said that right is in my opinion based on the sanctity of life which belongs to God, not on prematurely ending their lives to avoid suffering) makes me think that you don't.

Can you elaborate for me? Thanks!

The right to refuse a certain medical treatment (even if it might lead to their death) is not imho to be confused with deliberately ending one's life. This I believe is murder "self murder" which is not an option for a Christian because our lives are ours on loan, it really belongs to God and only he has the right to say when it will or will not end.

So no, I do not believe a person has the right to deliberately end their life to avoid suffering.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

So no, I do not believe a person has the right to deliberately end their life to avoid suffering.

Okay, so let's explore this.

Why?

Let's take KenRu's premises. Let's say I'm the patient. I'm terminally ill, I'm in intense pain, I'm conscious and in sound mind and do not wish to suffer.

Under your belief system, I should not be allowed to deliberately end my life. You say this is because my life is not my own, that it belongs to God.
Why does God apparently not want me to end my life? What is accomplished or gained by having me continue to suffer in pain? Is there a promise of a cure somehow?
Now let's say I have a twin brother in the exact same circumstances as me, however, he goes through with it and ends his life.
Is that wrong? Has he accomplished some evil thing? Is God going to punish him?

Basically, from where I'm sitting, it looks like I'm being told either do nothing and suffer a great deal now for a promise of some sort of afterlife...or cut short the suffering now and according to you suffer some sort of punishment.

I'm not exactly seeing any great moral teachings here.

[Mithrae]

I'm curious whether anyone is making a distinction between a legal right to die and what they believe is morally correct. Some folk have said that they don't agree with assisted suicide, but the poll is still 12-0: So do those people nevertheless acknowledge that people who don't share their moral views should have the legal right to make their own decision?

[JehovahsWitness]

Why does God apparently not want me to end my life? What is accomplished or gained by having me continue to suffer in pain?

NOTE: Firstly I would like to say, I am not here to judge others, I am simply explaining my faith based position. I neither judge others nor expect others to judge me for this. Each one must do what they see fit with the life they have been given and leave the rest to the Almighty.

Why does God apparently not want me to end my life?

Because that right is reserved for he who gave you that life. There is the case of Enoch in the bible where God has deliberately shorterned a life in order, we presume, for that one to not face suffering an ignorble or painful death, so He can do this. That said it all comes down to His will and purpose. If God will was that he allow his own son to suffer an excrutiatingly painful death, we cannot expect him (God) to protect everyone from pain and suffering in this system of things.

What is accomplished or gained by having me continue to suffer in pain?

I cannot speak for you, only for myself. I believe like Job in the bible, that a person that successfully faces death with integrity because of their loyalty to God has proved the sterling quality of their faith and maintaned a good name with Him. I believe stongly God rewards the integrity of all those that face such a terrible test by enduring to the end.

Jehovah God hates to see anyone suffering. As Jesus explained even a little sparrow doesn't die without the Father's knowing, how much more the agonizing death of any of his human creation. The bible explains why God has allowed death and suffering and more importantly what He is going to do about it. In the meantime he asks his servants to endure in faith, sharing their hope with anyone that will listen.

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

Because that right is reserved for he who gave you that life.

I disagree with this. Like I said to tam earlier, if something is given to me as a gift, that means it is then mine to do with as I please. If you get a present from someone, do they say to you that they retain veto rights as to what you can do with it?
Besides, this line of reasoning doesn't make your God sound loving or wise or caring. It makes him sound like a dictator, who owns us and who doesn't like suicide because it supposedly loses him a toy.

I believe like Job in the bible, that a person that successfully faces death with integrity because of their loyalty to God has proved the sterling quality of their faith and maintaned a good name with Him.

Do you not think someone who chooses suicide is facing death with integrity? Also, try to think of this another way - imagine if this was my spouse, who said "Don't commit suicide, I want you to prove your loyalty to me, no matter how painful it is"
Surely my spouse ought to care more about the fact I am in pain, than about my loyalty?
You make your god sound sadistic, JW. Especially since being God, he ought to know about one's loyalty anyway!

I believe stongly God rewards the integrity of all those that face such a terrible test by enduring to the end.

Is this a fact? I can see my way to enduring suffering if I knew to a lesser or greater extent that there was some benefit to be had, such as doctors telling me about a treatment or cure.
But to just suffer and believe on faith that God will 'reward my integrity'?
Again, this makes your God sound like a sadistic madman. Apparently, he could reward my faith NOW (in this hypothetical scenario where I am terminally ill and a believer), but for some reason, I have to endure the however many weeks or months of my illness in intense pain first.

I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy, JW. I wouldn't dangle a reward in front of someone I supposedly loved, only to tell them they have to suffer through a painful illness first and if they terminate themselves, they won't get it.

[rikuoamero]

I'm curious whether anyone is making a distinction between a legal right to die and what they believe is morally correct. Some folk have said that they don't agree with assisted suicide, but the poll is still 12-0: So do those people nevertheless acknowledge that people who don't share their moral views should have the legal right to make their own decision?

I'll make my own position clear.
1) Suicide should be legal
2) Assisted suicide should be legal, but regulated. I hear there are clinics that do help.
3) Regulation because the government and society at large is interested in making sure these are not murders.
4) Someone who wants to go through suicide and have someone else's help should go to a clinic, and go through some sort of process. Obviously, psychological counselling and other help should be provided first in order to talk them out of it.

[Mithrae]

I'll make my own position clear.
1) Suicide should be legal
2) Assisted suicide should be legal, but regulated. I hear there are clinics that do help.
3) Regulation because the government and society at large is interested in making sure these are not murders.
4) Someone who wants to go through suicide and have someone else's help should go to a clinic, and go through some sort of process. Obviously, psychological counselling and other help should be provided first in order to talk them out of it.

Sounds about the same as my views. Of course, we should be rightly wary of the slippery slope of cheapening life here. I first got on board with the right to die when one chooses from watching Futurama with its 25c suicide booths, but we can all too easily imagine a future in which people push for the removal of even that need to pause and think long enough to take out a coin!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

Because that right is reserved for he who gave you that life.

I disagree with this.

I wouldn't expect anything else from an atheist; naturally if one does not recognize the existence of a Creator one cannot accept that life comes from that One much less with conditions. You are well within your rights to disagree and I acknowledge that. I was stating my beliefs on the matter which I'm sure you respect I too have the right to hold and act accordingly.

this makes your God sound like a sadistic madman.

However MY God sounds to you; He is my God not yours. ( If you find a man's wife ugly your are free to offer a prayer of thanks you don't have to sleep with her and move on; unless someone is trying to impose on you that you should, its a non issue for anyone outside of the relationship). I have done my best to present my God as I see him, if you still find him unattractive feel free not to worship him.

Basically, from where I'm sitting, it looks like I'm being told either do {snip} ...

You are not being told to do anything, at least not by me. Even Almighty God doesn't impose his worldview on anyone, how much myself a mere mortal. I am sharing how *I* view things, since opinions and beliefs were invited. Perhaps you might address your remarks to someone who is telling you or attempting to impose on you an alternative belief or view and thrash things out with them.

Regards,

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

I wouldn't expect anything else from an atheist; naturally if one does not recognize the existence of a Creator one cannot accept that life comes from that One much less with conditions.

On the contrary, I would have the same view if I believed I had a creator. In fact...I already do! My human parents, for lack of a better word, created me, and I don't give them the final say on when my life will end.

However MY God sounds to you; He is my God not yours.

Doesn't the JW group teach that he is the God of all? Your analogy about the ugly wife is strained: a woman can be a wife to only one man, and not many at the same time.

I have done my best to present my God as I see him, if you still find him unattractive feel free not to worship him.

Yes you have, and consider this. Despite your best efforts, I find him unattractive! Why is that?

You are not being told to do anything, at least not by me.

In the hypothetical scenario where I am Kenru's terminal patient, I am. In that scenario, I am looking at my options, gathering data, and am being told by a Jehovah's Witness that my life is not my own, that Jehovah God wants me to suffer through my illness in intense pain to prove my loyalty to him, and then he will reward me.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

I wouldn't expect anything else from an atheist; naturally if one does not recognize the existence of a Creator one cannot accept that life comes from that One much less with conditions.

On the contrary, I would have the same view if I believed I had a creator.

What then is your point? That you agree with me if your atheism didn't stand in the way? If so, all I can say is ... duly noted.

I have done my best to present my God as I see him, if you still find him unattractive feel free not to worship him.

Yes you have, and consider this. Despite your best efforts, I find him unattractive! Why is that?

Why are you asking me? Don't you know? I am not, neither do I care to be a mind reader. Perhaps you could discuss why you feel the way you do with someone who cares.


JW


PS: If in an hypothetical scenerio you are being told what to do, I suggest you send the hypothetical Witness to hypothetical me and hypothetical me will explain to them that had no right to do this. I will explain to this hypothetical Witness that they can (if asked by someone what they should do with their life) share their own personal beliefs, show someone what they believe the bible is saying, and then leave the person to make their own decision.