You dont have to follow Gods rules

[Zzyzx]

.
You dont have to follow Gods rules

Did Jesus ever say or imply, You dont have to follow Gods rules?

Or, It is okay to eat pork even though forbidden by God?

Or, Keep some of the rules but ignore most of them?

Or, "Just love God and one another -- that's enough. Old rules don't matter"?

[Difflugia]

Did Jesus ever say or imply, You dont have to follow Gods rules?

No, but Paul did. Romans 14:22-23:

The faith which you have, keep to yourself before God. Happy is he that doesn't judge himself in what he approves. But he that doubts is condemned if he eats, because he eats not of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

For Paul, the only rule is that whatever you do, do it for God. If what you're doing is for selfish reasons, whether forbidden by the law or not, then it's sin.

I'm convinced that the Corinthians took that to heart. They had a kind of hippie commune that offended Paul, but I think Paul was the one being inconsistent. The apologetic response is that in the Romans passage, Paul was only talking about food, but I don't think that's logically sustainable. He elsewhere described himself as "not under the law" (1 Cor. 9:20) and I think he meant it. I just think Paul didn't have the kind of broad-mindedness that allowed him to view sex in the same way he viewed eating. When the Corinthians started doing a bit of swinging (1 Cor 5), Paul's response was, "that's not what I meant!" Though he would never have admitted it, Paul had himself become the "weak brother" that he talked about in 1 Corinthians 8.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

"Thus he declared all foods clean" is explicit permission to eat forbidden food like pork.

This Mark 7 quote creates quite the conundrum given the Matthew 5 passage Divine Insight quoted. Jesus seems to be contradicting himself.

It is also odd in light of Peter's vision in Acts 10:

• 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.
  14 Surely not, Lord! Peter replied. I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.
  15 The voice spoke to him a second time, Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.

If Jesus had already declared all foods clean as we find in Mark 7, why would Peter not be aware of the message just a few years later?


Tcg

Just because Christ taught something does not mean His disciples understood it (right away). That does not mean they could not understand it later, perhaps when they were ready and able bear it. As for dear Peter, even with this vision, even understanding from this vision not to call Gentiles unclean, Peter was later rebuked by Paul because be stopped eating with Gentiles when some other Jews were around.


So even understanding a lesson does not mean that fear (of man) or pride or some other sin won't get in the way of a person doing or choosing what is right.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Willum]

[Replying to tam]

It certainly does not mean you understand it now.
You certainly have far less comprehension than a disciple whom conversed with him.

[Tart]

[Replying to post 13 by Willum]


Does anyone truly understand anything? Id like to know it.
Or are we at to some degree of understanding in our own perceptions?

And you understanding tams understanding may be wrong? Bold claim

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 13 by Willum]


Does anyone truly understand anything? Id like to know it.

Yes tart but only humbe people admit they need help. Since the advent of the internet everybody thinks they can learn everything about the bible on their own, but this is simply not true. Biblically God will grant understanding but only to those that are not proud.

The key to understanding the bible begins with the simple question "Will you help me understand the bible?"

[Tcg]

The key to understanding the bible begins with the simple question "Will you help me understand the bible?"

Well, that and a willingness to then accept without question the indoctrination that will follow. Undoubtedly, part of that indoctrination will include the teaching that the one performing the indoctrination has some special source of knowledge that can't be questioned.


Tcg

[Mithrae]

Biblically God will grant understanding but only to those that are not proud.

The key to understanding the bible begins with the simple question "Will you help me understand the bible?"

I'd hazard a guess that a pretty solid majority of critics on the forum have indeed asked that question. It seems God has led them in a different direction to you.

And let's face it, there's literally nothing more proud than a bible-believer literally declaring that his opinions are God's opinions, regardless what humble facade that doctrine is (sometimes) masked behind. Folk willing to acknowledge that for better or for worse their own opinions and knowledge, and Paul's opinions and knowledge and so are indeed nothing more than their own fallible human perspectives must (by definition) be infinitely more humble than those trying to chain the Almighty into lockstep agreement with themselves and the writings they have selected.

So on two counts - having asked for God's guidance at some earlier point in their lives, and in being subsequently led in an infinitely less prideful direction - it would seem by own your criteria that most if not all of our former Christian members have an infinitely better claim to having received God's guidance than do evangelicals and other biblicists.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by Willum]


Does anyone truly understand anything? Id like to know it.

Yes tart but only humbe people admit they need help. Since the advent of the internet everybody thinks they can learn everything about the bible on their own, but this is simply not true. Biblically God will grant understanding but only to those that are not proud.

The key to understanding the bible begins with the simple question "Will you help me understand the bible?"

I imagine Satan is more than happy to lend his understanding to the open minded.
Probably the number one reason there are so many passionate interpretations of the Bible.

[tam]

Peace to you,

.
You dont have to follow Gods rules

Did Jesus ever say or imply, You dont have to follow Gods rules?

No. But you are assuming (it seems) that "God's rules" for everyone for all time = the Mosaic law. But how can a person be beholden to the conditions of a covenant that they were never a part of to begin with? Especially if they are part of the new covenant that Christ instituted?


The new covenant is based upon Christ and His blood, forgiveness and grace in Him. Love is the law of the new covenant. (see also Romans 13:8-10)



"A new command I give you; love one another as I have loved you."

"Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

"Love God with your whole heart and soul and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself." < Christ said all the law and the prophets hand on these two commandments.


There is also no law against love (logically should that not mean that love is the law?); and love covers over a multitude of sins.


See also this thread (a similar question):

viewtopic.php?p=987313#987313

viewtopic.php?p=987623#987623

Or, It is okay to eat pork even though forbidden by God?

Dietary restrictions were part of the law covenant between God and Israel, mediated by Moses.


And Christ said:

Are you still so dull? Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated."

Or, Keep some of the rules but ignore most of them?

Or, "Just love God and one another -- that's enough. Old rules don't matter"?

Same explanations as above.

And...

As has also been brought out in this thread, Moses permitted a man to divorce his wife for many reasons. Christ said Moses gave this law because of the hard hearts of the people, but that it was not that way from the beginning. He then proceeded to tell people what was TRUE:

It was because of your hardness of heart that Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but it was not this way from the beginning. Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ
tammy

[bjs]

[Replying to Willum]

No one appears to be claiming to understand the teachings of Jesus better than those who conversed with him. Rather, we have the advantage reading the outcome of the disciples discussions with their Lord and their reflections on those discussion. We can read in the text of the New Testament the mindset those disciples began with, the new mindset Jesus introduced them to, their struggle to understand and accept his words, and the final resolution of their struggle.

To state this more concretely, the disciples began from the belief that the OT law should be obeyed fully. Jesus claim authority over the law and, by means of that authority, taught an ethical understanding of the Law which removed much of the ceremonial and civil commands such as avoiding pork. The disciples struggled with this idea, having many debates about it amongst themselves. Finally, they accepted Jesus teaching on the law both on a theological and practical level. This conclusion was formalized at the council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15.

Orthodox Christianity has always claimed to be based on the teaching of the disciples since that is the only record of Jesus available to us. Therefor orthodox Christians do not practice much of the ceremonial law, such as circumcision or avoiding pork.