John the Obfuscator?

[Athetotheist]

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Malachi 4:5)

And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. (Matthew 11:14)

He will also go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah...(Luke 1:17)

And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not." (John 1:21)

When John the Baptizer's questioners ask him if he is Elijah, he must know that they are referring to Elijah the prophet whose coming is prophesied in Malachi. If that's who he is, why does he tell them it isn't? If Luke's "spirit and power" explanation is the answer, why doesn't John himself explain it that way for clarification? By stating flat-out that he isn't Elijah, he merely places himself among everyone else who isn't Elijah. And since his questioners know from their scripture that Elijah is supposed to come before the Messiah, when John tells them that he isn't Elijah he's telling them, in effect, that the one coming after him (Jesus) won't be the Messiah.

John claims to be a voice crying, "Make straight the way of the Lord!", but how does he "make straight the way of the Lord" by being Elijah and bluntly denying it when he's asked? Why would Elijah play such an ambiguous game?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to post 8 by Athetotheist]

I didnt say you had presented a false dichotomy.

I asked you if in your opinion was a false dichtomy a possibility and if not, why not?

Consider this syllogism:

Malachi says that Elijah the prophet is to come.

John says that he is not Elijah the prophet.

Therefore,

John says that he is not the one who is to come.

Since a thing cannot both be and not be at the same time in the same respect, how can that dichotomy be false?

I should add that the real dichotomy here is the declaration by Jesus that John is Elijah.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 10 by Athetotheist]

So would that be

...."No it is not possible you have presented a false dichotomy"

Or

... "Yes it not possible you have presented a false dichotomy"?


JW

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to post 10 by Athetotheist]

So would that be

...."No it is not possible you have presented a false dichotomy"

Or

... "Yes it not possible you have presented a false dichotomy"?


JW

My answer to your question is a question:
How can the dichotomy be false?

[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 5 by Red Wolf]

Yes he did. And John said he wasn't Elijah, what are we to make of all this?

What to make of this??????? Just another contradiction showing the Jesus Story is fiction??????

[1213]

...I should add that the real dichotomy here is the declaration by Jesus that John is Elijah.

But Jesus merely says:
And if you are willing to accept it….
Matt. 11:14

I think this means, John had the spirit of Elijah and that way Elijah went before Jesus.

He will also go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah...
Luke 1:17

John himself was not Elijah, but he had the same spirit and that way Elijah was also there.

[Athetotheist]

...I should add that the real dichotomy here is the declaration by Jesus that John is Elijah.

But Jesus merely says:
And if you are willing to accept it….
Matt. 11:14

I think this means, John had the spirit of Elijah and that way Elijah went before Jesus.

He will also go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah...
Luke 1:17

John himself was not Elijah, but he had the same spirit and that way Elijah was also there.

Is Jesus the Son of God "if you are willing to accept it"?

The text of Malachi says that the one to come is Elijah the prophet, not Elijah the proxy.

It also states that Elijah "will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers". There's no indication of John having done any such thing.

And the question remains: if it was only someone in the "spirit and power of Elijah" who was to come, why doesn't John identify himself even as that when asked? By flatly stating that he isn't Elijah, John is flatly telling his questioners that the prophecy of Elijah's return has not been fulfilled, at least not in him, and isn't even giving them the option of accepting that it has. If he was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy, how did that "make straight the way of the Lord"? If he fulfilled the prophecy by having "the same spirit" as Elijah, why would the spirit of Elijah lead him to obscure that fact with a blunt denial? Again, why play an ambiguous game?

[1213]

…
It also states that Elijah "will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers". There's no indication of John having done any such thing…

By what the Bible tells, I think he did that, he turn many to God.

He will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord, their God.
Luke 1:16
He came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sins. As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord. Make his paths straight. Every valley will be filled. Every mountain and hill will be brought low. The crooked will become straight, And the rough ways smooth. All flesh will see God's salvation.'" He said therefore to the multitudes who went out to be baptized by him, "You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luke 3:3-7

…And the question remains: if it was only someone in the "spirit and power of Elijah" who was to come, why doesn't John identify himself even as that when asked? …

He asks directly the question that was asked.

[Athetotheist]

…
It also states that Elijah "will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers". There's no indication of John having done any such thing…

By what the Bible tells, I think he did that, he turn many to God.

He will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord, their God.
Luke 1:16
He came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sins. As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord. Make his paths straight. Every valley will be filled. Every mountain and hill will be brought low. The crooked will become straight, And the rough ways smooth. All flesh will see God's salvation.'" He said therefore to the multitudes who went out to be baptized by him, "You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luke 3:3-7

How does he turn fathers' and children's hearts toward each other simply by berating a crowd?

…And the question remains: if it was only someone in the "spirit and power of Elijah" who was to come, why doesn't John identify himself even as that when asked? …

He asks directly the question that was asked.

His answer to the question is "no". If he's the prophet Elijah, whose return is prophesied in Malachi, his answer should be "yes" since that's undoubtedly who the questioners are talking about.

[1213]

How does he turn fathers' and children's hearts toward each other simply by berating a crowd?

But isn’t Bible saying that he turns to them to their Father, God. That is what John was doing, turning people back to God by preaching and baptizing.

[Elijah John]

Why would Elijah play such an ambiguous game?

Because John was telling the truth and not playing a game, and Jesus was either mistaken or speaking metaphorically. If John was Elijah, it was news to John.

Also, Historical Jesus scholars believe that John was an apocalyptic prophet making straight the way of the LORD, YHVH, not the Lord Jesus. And there is evidence that Jesus was a disciple of John who picked up the banner when John was martyred. Jesus too, became an apocalyptic prophet preparing people for the Kingdom of Heaven.