What does Paul mean by "sin?"

[Difflugia]

What does Paul mean by "sin," particularly as a noun in Romans? What does it mean to be "under sin" (3:9) or for sin to be "in the world," but not "reckoned" or "imputed" (5:13)? Is the sin that "reigned in death" (5:21) just a metaphorical description of personal sins that can be "covered" (4:7), or are they different things?

[DavidLeon]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #5]

So you agree with (Ezekiel 18:20).

Is that correct?

So the answer is yes, but I have to give a long answer.

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that is sinning - it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be."

[Clownboat]

So the answer is yes, but I have to give a long answer.

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that is sinning - it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father,

Not true due to real life examples of it not being true, but Adam made an error and his sons (the rest of humanity) will bear nothing because of it is the claim. This contradicts the claim in the Bible that we all inherited sin from Adam.

and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son.

Real world examples show that these words are also false. Plenty of scenarios where a father will suffer due to the actions of their child.

Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.

Sounds like ignorant man assigning good and evil spirits to explain the actions of men. Nothing new here and certainly not an impressive claim.

Seems that we have 2 claims that are demonstrably incorrect and another that is made out of ignorance.

[Deeogee]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #11]

So you agree that sin is the problem.

Man is tempted by sin and when sin is committed then comes spiritual death (James 1:13,14).

You do not believe in original sin, correct.

[DavidLeon]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #11]

So you agree that sin is the problem.

The problem of what?

Man is tempted by sin and when sin is committed then comes spiritual death (James 1:13,14).

You do not believe in original sin, correct.

I do believe in "original sin" if by original sin you mean to say Adam sinned and we all inherit sin.

[DavidLeon]

and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son.

Real world examples show that these words are also false. Plenty of scenarios where a father will suffer due to the actions of their child.

You're taking it out of context. In context Jehovah will not hold anyone accountable for a sin they didn't commit. That doesn't mean that people in the Bible or the real world wouldn't suffer due to the actions of others. Huge difference.

Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.

Sounds like ignorant man assigning good and evil spirits to explain the actions of men. Nothing new here and certainly not an impressive claim.

Seems that we have 2 claims that are demonstrably incorrect and another that is made out of ignorance.

Wow. No, it seems that we have 2 claims either completely misunderstood on purpose due to ideological possession or willful ignorance on your part. What the 2nd one claimed is that you reap what you sow, but if you get to the field after someone else has sowed you will likely reap that as well.

[Clownboat]

You're taking it out of context. In context Jehovah will not hold anyone accountable for a sin they didn't commit.

Super! Since I did not commit any sin in any garden, I am not going to be held accountable for the sin that was committed that I didn't commit in said garden.
Savvy?

That doesn't mean that people in the Bible or the real world wouldn't suffer due to the actions of others.

I agree, but that goes against the claim you had made:
"a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son."
Your claim as said is false.

Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.

Sounds like ignorant man assigning good and evil spirits to explain the actions of men. Nothing new here and certainly not an impressive claim.
Seems that we have 2 claims that are demonstrably incorrect and another that is made out of ignorance.

Wow. No, it seems that we have 2 claims either completely misunderstood on purpose due to ideological possession or willful ignorance on your part.

What the 2nd one claimed is that you reap what you sow,

This is another claim you need to substantiate.
Out of 54,868 homicides in 55 cities over the past decade, 50 percent did not result in an arrest.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

I get it, quoting scripture can feel and sound cool and it is empowering to convince yourself (generic yourself) that you are a vessel or messenger of a god, but often times when examined and compared to the real world, it is found to be lacking and not reflective of how things actually work around us.

Tithes and offerings are another example. If tithing to the Christian god worked and Christians really got back 10 fold (or 100 fold, depending on the preacher) the amount given, this would be detectable. It is not.
Luke 6:38 ESV
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

[DavidLeon]

You're taking it out of context. In context Jehovah will not hold anyone accountable for a sin they didn't commit.

Super! Since I did not commit any sin in any garden, I am not going to be held accountable for the sin that was committed that I didn't commit in said garden.
Savvy?

Correct. Nor will I or anyone else who ever lived except for Satan, Adam and Eve. I've already made that point several times. Somewhere.

That doesn't mean that people in the Bible or the real world wouldn't suffer due to the actions of others.

I agree, but that goes against the claim you had made:
"a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son."
Your claim as said is false.

I didn't say anything like that. I said we suffer due to Adam's sin not unlike a son suffers for his father's imprisonment. Only the father is punished for the crime, but the son would obviously suffer from circumstances created by the father's crime, or sin.

This is another claim you need to substantiate.
Out of 54,868 homicides in 55 cities over the past decade, 50 percent did not result in an arrest.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

I get it, quoting scripture can feel and sound cool and it is empowering to convince yourself (generic yourself) that you are a vessel or messenger of a god, but often times when examined and compared to the real world, it is found to be lacking and not reflective of how things actually work around us.

Tithes and offerings are another example. If tithing to the Christian god worked and Christians really got back 10 fold (or 100 fold, depending on the preacher) the amount given, this would be detectable. It is not.
Luke 6:38 ESV
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Are you serious? Are you BusterGG from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible? In nearly 30 years of debating atheists only BusterGG would say something so mind mindbogglingly obtuse.

[Deeogee]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #14]
Then it seems your understanding of (Ezekiel 18:20) is incorrect.


Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

[Clownboat]

Since I did not commit any sin in any garden, I am not going to be held accountable

Correct.

I said we suffer due to Adam's sin

So women having pain during childbirth has nothing to do with the sin from the garden?
"I'm sending your dad to prison, but you will not be punished for the crime, well besides for ol childbirth pains and not being allowed to remain in the garden" thing.

Say what you want, but we are responsible for bearing the punishment for the alleged crimes commited in the alleged garden.

not unlike a son suffers for his father's imprisonment. Only the father is punished for the crime

Doesn't appear to be the case with the garden scenario you present.

This is another claim you need to substantiate.
Out of 54,868 homicides in 55 cities over the past decade, 50 percent did not result in an arrest.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

I get it, quoting scripture can feel and sound cool and it is empowering to convince yourself (generic yourself) that you are a vessel or messenger of a god, but often times when examined and compared to the real world, it is found to be lacking and not reflective of how things actually work around us.

Tithes and offerings are another example. If tithing to the Christian god worked and Christians really got back 10 fold (or 100 fold, depending on the preacher) the amount given, this would be detectable. It is not.
Luke 6:38 ESV
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Are you serious? Are you BusterGG from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible? In nearly 30 years of debating atheists only BusterGG would say something so mind mindbogglingly obtuse.

I am not said person. Any reason you chose not to defend your statement?:
"What the 2nd one claimed is that you reap what you sow,"
Murder statistics for starters don't suggest that your claim reflects reality.

From my life experience, what you say is nothing more than a religious platidude that comes from the pulpit to those in the seats. Sounds great, expecially right after a person just gave 10% or more of their income to said pulpit. They can then employ faith to feel good about the money they no longer have and they can feel like they will be blessed for it. Again, something we could detect in the real world that we do not.

Maybe he is just no willing to share?
Haggai 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

[DavidLeon]

So women having pain during childbirth has nothing to do with the sin from the garden?

Let me ask you a couple questions. Was Eve deceived? (1 Timothy 2:14) Second question; what was the first effect of their sin? Shame. And it wasn't a punishment, was it? No. Here is something we need to address. Prophecy.

Most people think that prophets tell people what God foresees in the future. They come to the conclusion that God and even demons - the supernatural - can see into the future. But the fact is that the with the Hebrew word for prophecy there is not even a hint of this being the case. When God says something is going to happen he means either of two things. One he will make sure it happens and two, he can easily predict the outcome of something. Like a scientist making an accurate prediction. Not like a fake fortune teller downtown.

"I'm sending your dad to prison, but you will not be punished for the crime, well besides for ol childbirth pains and not being allowed to remain in the garden" thing.

So which is a predictable outcome based upon environmental factors and which is a direct punishment? Hint: We weren't' in the garden.

Say what you want, but we are responsible for bearing the punishment for the alleged crimes commited in the alleged garden.

Or we live in the environment created by the alleged crimes.

not unlike a son suffers for his father's imprisonment. Only the father is punished for the crime

Doesn't appear to be the case with the garden scenario you present.

Ah, but you see, it does.

This is another claim you need to substantiate.
Out of 54,868 homicides in 55 cities over the past decade, 50 percent did not result in an arrest.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

I get it, quoting scripture can feel and sound cool and it is empowering to convince yourself (generic yourself) that you are a vessel or messenger of a god, but often times when examined and compared to the real world, it is found to be lacking and not reflective of how things actually work around us.

Tithes and offerings are another example. If tithing to the Christian god worked and Christians really got back 10 fold (or 100 fold, depending on the preacher) the amount given, this would be detectable. It is not.
Luke 6:38 ESV
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Are you serious? Are you BusterGG from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible? In nearly 30 years of debating atheists only BusterGG would say something so mind mindbogglingly obtuse.

I am not said person. Any reason you chose not to defend your statement?:
"What the 2nd one claimed is that you reap what you sow,"
Murder statistics for starters don't suggest that your claim reflects reality.

From my life experience, what you say is nothing more than a religious platidude that comes from the pulpit to those in the seats. Sounds great, expecially right after a person just gave 10% or more of their income to said pulpit. They can then employ faith to feel good about the money they no longer have and they can feel like they will be blessed for it. Again, something we could detect in the real world that we do not.

Maybe he is just no willing to share?
Haggai 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

Okay. You seem to have two points here. 1 Most murderers don't get punished and 2. There doesn't seem to be any reward for tithing as promised. In both cases you are jumping the gun. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone murdering anyone else in this time will be punished by God in this time. Even the Bible doesn't reflect that happening in every case in the time it was written. The unfaithful will be punished for murder while the faithful will be rewarded for their giving. When God's kingdom is restored on earth with sin and death being no more.

So if you are looking for God to be your own personal executioner and cash cow you kind of got lost in interpretation. Big time.