WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

[POI]

I've been debating apologists, pastors, ministers, theists, and others, for a few years now. As I had already suspected, and continue to confirm for myself, is that no amount of logical argumentation later sways one's decision to the opponent's "side". This goes for both theists and atheists alike...

I've delved into the 'psychology of believe', in the passed. However, these topics below look to be my biggest 'findings' thus far, as to why so many believe....

- Most are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of (type 1 errors). We all commit them BTW.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of geography.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to early indoctrination. - It later becomes difficult to shake this early indoctrinated core belief, even if the evidence later suggests otherwise to this recipient.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the notion of 'experiencing god speaking to them' at one point or many.
- (Please add your reason(s) here if you feel I've missed some key topics)

I feel it's safe to assume that we will always have more god believers, verses 'atheists'. Apologetics, though fun to debate, hardly ever IS the reason someone becomes a 'god believer'. "It's been said that logic and reason is not what brought someone to 'god'. Hence, why would you suspect logic and reason could sway such away from god?"

One last thing, before I pose the question(s) for examination...

I was in a heated debate, with a church pastor, about all things... slavery. In the middle, he stopped and asked me.... "Have you ever felt the Holy Spirit?" For which I answered in honesty.... "Though I have had experiences in the passed, for which I cannot fully explain, I do not know whether or not it was me speaking to myself, or if there was the presence of something else, for which was not me." He paused, looked at me, as if he felt sorry for me, and stated... "Okay, this conversation is over." I asked why. He stated that God exists, and He attempts to speak to all of us. If you do not hear Him, this is your fault. I then pointed out that many, around the globe, feel they have communicated with god(s), but also differing god(s) than (yours). He was already done, and just continued to no longer engage, as if he just felt pity for me.

Again, seems all roads, with Christians, seemingly often times leads to Romans 1. Anywho, moving along... Question(s) for debate:

1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?

[POI]

I too was a product of indoctrination.

Interesting, I don't think I am, for example because there is no one who would have done that to me.

You state that you always believed in God. Were you raised in some sort of religion, or, was the god topic never discussed or spoken about in your household? As a small child, did you conceptualize god all on your own, or, was this concept presented to you?

I might also ask why you have not fell away? And the first question of honesty would be... Are the reason(s) based more-so on logic or emotion?

Fell away from what? Belief that it is good to love others? Belief that God is real?

I fell away from Christianity in general, and then later had doubts about deism as a whole. Now, I just shrug my shoulders and accept that when we die, that's likely it...

I have no intelligent reason to believe God is not real. For me it is more matter of understanding, I think it is the best and most reasonable explanation for this world and the Bible to exist.

Noted. What would you say is the BEST argument for god's existence? And if this argument were to then be debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, would you still be a god believer?

I feel I'm pretty well versed in what the Bible expresses. If I keep reading it more and more, will this then somehow make it true?

Sorry, I have difficulties to believe you.

Just to give you some background, I was raised Catholic, and later became non-denominational. What is it that you do not believe exactly?

- I have not read the Bible?
- I have read the Bible, but do not understand it?
- other?

There exists more denominations to Christianity than I can shake a stick at.... They all assume their version is the right version, otherwise, they would not accept that specific doctrine. They are all believers. And yet, there exists contradiction galore. Moving along...

But, I don't claim it makes it true. I hope people can understand it better. My goal is not make anyone to believe. My goal is to help people to understand.

Good luck. You might first want to unify what the Christians themselves think, before you go off trying to get atheists to understand. BTW, many atheists understand what the Bible says very well; which is in part, the reason they no longer believe it can be true.

[1213]

…You state that you always believed in God. Were you raised in some sort of religion, or, was the god topic never discussed or spoken about in your household? As a small child, did you conceptualize god all on your own, or, was this concept presented to you?...

I don’t remember any moment in history when I first thought now I believe in God. That is why I think I have always believed. But, maybe it is wrong, after all, it may just be that I don’t remember well. But, the idea of God has been in all western countries for a long time. Even in atheistic family I would have heard of it. So, the idea could have been very deeply built in the system, even if the family itself was not preaching it. In my case I don’t think my parents indoctrinated it to me, but maybe this also depends on what that means.

What would you say is the BEST argument for god's existence? And if this argument were to then be debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, would you still be a god believer?

For me the existence of this world, life and Bible are the best argument for God. I don’t think life could exist without God. and I don’t believe people could have written Bible without God. so, if life or Bible would not exist, I probably would not believe what is said in the Bible.

But, for me, more meaningful than to believe God is real, is to understand what is good, right and righteousness and to be loyal to God, because it means one loves others as themselves. Believing that God is real is not useful, if person is evil. Still, it could be difficult to me to stop believing, because for me, God is the only hope for better, for that truth and love wins in the end.

…BTW, many atheists understand what the Bible says very well; which is in part, the reason they no longer believe it can be true.

Sorry, I don’t believe that, because they see it contradictory and erroneous.

[POI]

…You state that you always believed in God. Were you raised in some sort of religion, or, was the god topic never discussed or spoken about in your household? As a small child, did you conceptualize god all on your own, or, was this concept presented to you?...

I don’t remember any moment in history when I first thought now I believe in God. That is why I think I have always believed. But, maybe it is wrong, after all, it may just be that I don’t remember well. But, the idea of God has been in all western countries for a long time. Even in atheistic family I would have heard of it. So, the idea could have been very deeply built in the system, even if the family itself was not preaching it. In my case I don’t think my parents indoctrinated it to me, but maybe this also depends on what that means.

You answered part of my question(s), but not all I'll rephrase my follow up question...

Were your raised in any type of religious household, or, were you instead raised completely absent to any concept of 'god' at all?

What would you say is the BEST argument for god's existence? And if this argument were to then be debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, would you still be a god believer?

For me the existence of this world, life and Bible are the best argument for God. I don’t think life could exist without God. and I don’t believe people could have written Bible without God. so, if life or Bible would not exist, I probably would not believe what is said in the Bible.

Couldn't someone make the exact same earnest assessment about the Rig Veda? If not, why not?

But, for me, more meaningful than to believe God is real, is to understand what is good, right and righteousness and to be loyal to God, because it means one loves others as themselves. Believing that God is real is not useful, if person is evil. Still, it could be difficult to me to stop believing, because for me, God is the only hope for better, for that truth and love wins in the end.

Sounds to me that you hope your believed upon God exists, so that 'goodness' will be rewarded and 'evil' will be unrewarded?

…BTW, many atheists understand what the Bible says very well; which is in part, the reason they no longer believe it can be true.

Sorry, I don’t believe that, because they see it contradictory and erroneous.

Well, first of all, I've debated Christians which see contradiction.

Seconds of all, you do understand that many now claimed atheists were once Christian, right?

And third, your claim is that the Bible is completely consistent? Can you prove this claim?

[1213]

Were your raised in any type of religious household, or, were you instead raised completely absent to any concept of 'god' at all?

I was born in Finland, the whole country was basically Christian and the concept of God has been around, even without family saying anything about it. However, I don't think hearing about God means the idea is indoctrinated.

For me the existence of this world, life and Bible are the best argument for God. I don’t think life could exist without God. and I don’t believe people could have written Bible without God. so, if life or Bible would not exist, I probably would not believe what is said in the Bible.

Couldn't someone make the exact same earnest assessment about the Rig Veda? If not, why not?

Probably all kind of claims can be made. For me, the question is then, why do they think so. If there is no good reason for it, it is not meaningful for me.

And third, your claim is that the Bible is completely consistent?

I think so. But, I can't prove anything. However, I have not seen any good reason to think it is not consistent.

[POI]

Were your raised in any type of religious household, or, were you instead raised completely absent to any concept of 'god' at all?

I was born in Finland, the whole country was basically Christian and the concept of God has been around, even without family saying anything about it. However, I don't think hearing about God means the idea is indoctrinated.

Were/are your parents Christian? If so, did you ever go to church with them, or other?

For me the existence of this world, life and Bible are the best argument for God. I don’t think life could exist without God. and I don’t believe people could have written Bible without God. so, if life or Bible would not exist, I probably would not believe what is said in the Bible.

Couldn't someone make the exact same earnest assessment about the Rig Veda? If not, why not?

Probably all kind of claims can be made. For me, the question is then, why do they think so. If there is no good reason for it, it is not meaningful for me.

You stated you "believe people could not have written the Bible without God." I now ask you a question in return...

List one thing in the Bible for which men could not have come up with all on their own?

You also stated "the existence of this world, life, and the Bible are the best arguments for God".

In regards to the 'world' and 'life', couldn't natural processes alone explain these features? If not, why not?

In regards to 'God', even if some 'prime mover' or 'kick starter' was deemed necessary to put things into motion, why YHWH, verses the many other expressed god(s)? Have you explored then all?

And third, your claim is that the Bible is completely consistent?

I think so. But, I can't prove anything. However, I have not seen any good reason to think it is not consistent.

I see the Bible demonstrating two types of inconsistencies:

1. Inconsistent with later human discovery (i.e.) scientific discovery looks to contradict claims from the Bible.
2. Inconsistent in and of itself... (i.e.) The author(s) for Mark 16:8 express a conflicting message verses the author(s) for Mark 16:9-20. This discovery alone demonstrates embellishments, which may mean the entire 'doctrine' is merely of legend and lore.

Quite honestly, the more concerning issue is the first type of inconsistency. You do not have to go too many Chapters deep, before you either need to a) hand-wave away all such claims as metaphor/allegory/other to remain a believer, or, b) be a science denier.

[JehovahsWitness]

1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?

1. I believe in an intelligent Creator because we exist and its is therefore in my opinion a logical inevitability.

2. I can debate it; there is no chance however I will change my mind, unless I can be convinced I do not exist.

3. I enjoy writing about bible topics and I feel it's a way to get what I see as bible truths on the internet.

- Are you here to convert atheists, or other? That would be nice but I'd come here anyway.

[POI]

1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?

1. I believe in an intelligent Creator because we exist and its is therefore in my opinion a logical inevitability.

Such a rationale may bring you to mere deism alone. However, you would still have a long ways to go -- before getting from deism to a JW Let's trek in reverse. Rather than exploring the concept of 'creationism' first, let's instead explore why you are specifically a JW?

2. I can debate it; there is no chance however I will change my mind, unless I can be convinced I do not exist.

Well, we are not there yet. I'm asking why you are a JW specifically. Is this line of questioning open for debate? If questions are posed, which raise possible inconsistencies to your chosen 'faith', will you address them?

3. I enjoy writing about bible topics and I feel it's a way to get what I see as bible truths on the internet.

- Are you here to convert atheists, or other? That would be nice but I'd come here anyway.

"Bible truth's"? Do tell....

I'm here for many reasons... If you care for a list, I can give you one.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm asking why you are a JW specifically. Is this line of questioning open for debate? If questions are posed, which raise possible inconsistencies to your chosen 'faith', will you address them?

My faith is not up for debate no. You may ask me why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses if you are happy to just accept my anwser.

[JehovahsWitness]

"Bible truth's"? Do tell....

I'm here for many reasons... If you care for a list, I can give you one.

Are you asking me what I believe to be bible truths or are you wanting to debate my beliefs. If the former then I will respond. If the latter have a nice day.




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm here for many reasons... .

I dont recall asking you why you are here.

... If you care for a list, I can give you one.

No I don't really, but thanks for the offer.