Christians, What Do You Make Of The Decline Of Your Religion?

[Miles]

.


....................

.................... source

Or doesn't it matter?

.

[Miles]

....
So as I understand it, to be a JW righteous person one can sin to one's hearts content and be the biggest criminal bastard in the land yet still be righteous as long as a person has "faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ," as expressed in the above third paragraph." That about it?

But then there's this little tidbit from Titus 3:4-5

4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward mankind appeared, 5 he saved us—not by righteous works that we did ourselves, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and the renewal by the Holy Spirit,

"Righteous works"??? Now I'm all confused. What works do we do that are contingent on faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

I am not a JW and I think this should be understood as it is in the Bible.

I think Hebrews 11 explains well the meaning of faith. For example it tells about Noah, who was loyal (faithful) to God and built the ark, even though it was probably very odd looking about 100 years before the flood. Because he was loyal to God in that, he was counted righteous. Same is with disciples of Jesus ("Christians"). If they are loyal to Jesus and his words, they can be counted righteous. And if they are truly loyal to him, it will show also in their actions.

If person is loyal, it tells that person has right understanding, which is why righteousness can be called also wisdom of the just. If person has that, it comes visible also in the actions, which faith/loyalty also is. Actions tells what kind of person one is, but they don't define anyone, because they are only result of the mind.

And as the Bible tells, people should be born anew and become righteous and sin no more.

Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, if one does not receive birth from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be born, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born? Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, if one does not receive birth out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. That receiving birth from the flesh is flesh, and that receiving birth from the Spirit is spirit. Do not wonder because I told you, You must receive birth from above.
Joh. 3:3-7

Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1 Joh. 3:7-10

...Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.
Joh. 8:11

This means, by what the Bible tells, it is not ok to sin.

That's what I figured, and my apologies for mistaking you for a Jehovah's Witness.

.

[POI]

Does following someone make it a religion?

You are not some form of a "Christian"? If you are following someone who proclaims to be 'the truth, the way, and the light", and you believe and worship his proclaimed superhuman powers as a God (or son of God), which also consists of a specific set of faith and worship, then I'd say so, yes.

We have many "Christian" denominations. If you claim you are not under a specific denomination, then you are still a "Christian", but instead maybe non-denominational. So yea, in your case, it's not merely about following your parent's advice. Or, merely following someone in a protest about a particular topic, for example.

I would rather say, faith requires righteousness.

I have understood faith means one trusts or/and is loyal. For example Noah was loyal/faithful to God, he trusted what God told to him and built the ark, even though it could have looked ridiculous at that time. It is the reason why he was counted righteous. Same can be said about those who trust Jesus and his words. They can be counted righteous because of that.

And by what is said in the Bible, righteousness means wisdom of just, which can be seen as right understanding that leads to right actions. This means, your words and actions tells are you righteous or not, because all of your actions comes from your mind. If your mind is unrighteous, it produces unrighteous "fruit", and if righteous, then righteous "fruit", thus the saying, by fruits you shall know them.

If person show right understanding, he can be counted righteous. But, it can change. Person can reject it and become unrighteous. And unrighteous can become righteous also, by the words of Jesus. His words can cause the change of mind for righteousness. Receiving those words means person has faith in Jesus. And those words came to us with the price of Jesus blood, because he was killed for declaring the message.

Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1 Joh. 3:7-10

But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh. 1:12-13

It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh does not profit, nothing! The words which I speak to you are spirit and are life.
Joh. 6:63

When that change of mind happens, it can be said person is then born anew, from God.

Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, if one does not receive birth from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be born, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born? Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, if one does not receive birth out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. That receiving birth from the flesh is flesh, and that receiving birth from the Spirit is spirit. Do not wonder because I told you, You must receive birth from above.
Joh. 3:3-7

Then God's law will be written in person's heart, he will know God's will, which was foretold in Jer. 31:31-34.

Because this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, giving My laws into their mind, and I will write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." "And they shall no more teach each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, Know the Lord; because all shall know Me, from the least of them to their great ones. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousnesses, and I will not at all remember their sins and their lawless deeds."
Hepr. 8:10-12 (Jer. 31:31-34)

All this means, faith is only a result, not the cause. If person loses faith, it means his mind has changed somehow and he is not righteous anymore.

Can you be considered righteous without faith in Jesus/God? Likely not, according to the Bible. Seems we agree one needs the other (i.e. faith/righteousness).

Thus, when you say "in the Biblical point of view, religion is not meaningful. That, who is righteous is, because eternal life is promised for righteous. ", you are ultimately saying faith in Jesus is not meaningful??? Hence, here lies the crux of the matter (for you). If you are a follower of Jesus, just go ahead and label yourself a "Christian" of some flavor (which falls under the category of 'religion"). And under the flag of "Christianity", faith is a requirement, right?

[1213]

....
Can you be considered righteous without faith in Jesus/God? ...

I think it depends on the reason, why would you not be loyal to Jesus or God. If you don't have any intelligent reason for that, then I think it proves you don't have the wisdom of the just. But, luckily I am not the judge. I think it is best to leave the judging for God.

[1213]

...
It is at best a misunderstanding and at worse a deliberate scam, to claim that being a good person will save. A plaster saint of a Sunni will not get saved, unless they believe in Jesus - as the resurrected son of God, not just a 'prophet'. We know this and good works are a shell game.

Of course sinning can lose you salvation. Paul makes that clear and the 'once saved, always saved' lark is a crock. If you deface the books, you can lose your library ticket and don't let any Calvinist or whatever tell you different. These people either do not know or understand their scripture or do not care.

Thus, No; Hitler or any other Christian criminal may lose the grace given by Jesusfaith (provided their Denomination is not too outre). And repentance may do it (if sincere) to gain forgiveness. If there is a real intent not to sin again and the mean it.
...

You seem to think faith and belief are the same, why so?

I think the whole "Jesusfaith" idea is wrong, or not accurate enough, because it is said that only righteous will have eternal life. If person is not righteous, any "belief" or "faith" is not useful for to get the life. People who think empty words are enough, maybe disappointed in the end.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

...the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1 Joh. 3:7-10

[POI]

....
Can you be considered righteous without faith in Jesus/God? ...

I think it depends on the reason, why would you not be loyal to Jesus or God. If you don't have any intelligent reason for that, then I think it proves you don't have the wisdom of the just. But, luckily I am not the judge. I think it is best to leave the judging for God.

Let's remain focused here. The OP asks: (Paraphrased) "Does it matter that Christianity is on decline?"

You then stated (in post 2) -- "In the Biblical point of view, religion is not meaningful. That, who is righteous is, because eternal life is promised for the righteous"

During our exchange, I have explained the terms "religion" and "Christianity". Which would mean that (religion and Christianity) ARE important, as the terms also encompass anyone and everyone who could possibly be considered "righteous".

Thus, starting anew, can you please now actually answer the OP question in red?

[Eloi]

From the biblical point of view the decline of the religious character of the people in the last days of the world system of human government is a prophecy.

2 Tim. 3:1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

And not only the fact that it would exist in our times, but the detail that this human inclination towards certain behaviors would be increasing until the final moment.

2 Tim. 3:13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.

From the secular point of view, this same situation is also predictable: in a world where traditional moral values change, it is expected that society in general will tend to reject models that limit their desire to follow those new currents of conduct that the world is creating. For example, as long as there are churches that say that being homosexual does not affect your relationship with God, some homosexuals will remain religious, but when those churches finally recognize that the Bible includes such behavior among those that God does not approve of, then most of those gay religious will stop being in those churches to continue practicing what they want because not matter what, the world will accept them doing so. And that is just one example of the currents of this world changing the views of the people who belong to this world.

God's real servants do not belong to this world, and its influence does not change them, but rather strengthens them even more, knowing that the more the world in general drifts away from God, the closer the purge of the planet is than the Creator of humanity and the planet will perform.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
It is at best a misunderstanding and at worse a deliberate scam, to claim that being a good person will save. A plaster saint of a Sunni will not get saved, unless they believe in Jesus - as the resurrected son of God, not just a 'prophet'. We know this and good works are a shell game.

Of course sinning can lose you salvation. Paul makes that clear and the 'once saved, always saved' lark is a crock. If you deface the books, you can lose your library ticket and don't let any Calvinist or whatever tell you different. These people either do not know or understand their scripture or do not care.

Thus, No; Hitler or any other Christian criminal may lose the grace given by Jesusfaith (provided their Denomination is not too outre). And repentance may do it (if sincere) to gain forgiveness. If there is a real intent not to sin again and the mean it.
...

You seem to think faith and belief are the same, why so?

I think the whole "Jesusfaith" idea is wrong, or not accurate enough, because it is said that only righteous will have eternal life. If person is not righteous, any "belief" or "faith" is not useful for to get the life. People who think empty words are enough, maybe disappointed in the end.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

...the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1 Joh. 3:7-10

Faith and belief are similar, but Belief implies thinking a thing is so for good reasons, while Faith implies believing it in spite of good reasons not to. But the whole thing about Righteousness hinges on what that is. You should know better than to think that it means Good Works. That counts for nothing. Jesusfaith counts for everything. Signing up to Christianity (aside whether you picked the right kind) is your ticket to heaven, not good works. And if you think works get you anything but risking salvation if your works are sinful, it counts for nothing towards salvation. That depends on 'Right Faith' which is to say belief in Jesus and with the 'Minimum Facts', as support as too much good evidence that Jesus is real can water down the value of the Faith to dangerously weak levels.

"Sorry, can't let you in - you lusted after your brother's wife"

"But Peter, the idea only popped into my head - I didn't even try to climb aboard her."

"Saint Peter to you. Have you never read that anyone who has had the hots for a woman in his head hath committed adultery as though he had dune it?" (1)

"I thought that was metaphorical. Anyway I repented right away."

"Repentance only works if your faith is strong and pure."

"Well surely I'm ok there - T spent my life doing Bible apologetics - I converted so many atheists to Jesusfaith."

"There's the problem - you believed for good reasons - you need to have Faith in spite of good reasons. Sorry, your ticket is invalid...Adolph, one for you and Lucifer to deal with."

Indeed from what I have seen of Christian apologetics, the more denial of valid arguments one does, the better the faith is supposed to be the 'If we knew God was real, faith would count for nothing' apologetic. The Oolon Colluphid argument against God, but done properly.



(1) Matthew 5.28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

No wonder Christianity is in decline.

[Miles]

...
It is at best a misunderstanding and at worse a deliberate scam, to claim that being a good person will save. A plaster saint of a Sunni will not get saved, unless they believe in Jesus - as the resurrected son of God, not just a 'prophet'. We know this and good works are a shell game.

Of course sinning can lose you salvation. Paul makes that clear and the 'once saved, always saved' lark is a crock. If you deface the books, you can lose your library ticket and don't let any Calvinist or whatever tell you different. These people either do not know or understand their scripture or do not care.

Thus, No; Hitler or any other Christian criminal may lose the grace given by Jesusfaith (provided their Denomination is not too outre). And repentance may do it (if sincere) to gain forgiveness. If there is a real intent not to sin again and the mean it.
...

You seem to think faith and belief are the same, why so?

I think the whole "Jesusfaith" idea is wrong, or not accurate enough, because it is said that only righteous will have eternal life. If person is not righteous, any "belief" or "faith" is not useful for to get the life. People who think empty words are enough, maybe disappointed in the end.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

...the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1 Joh. 3:7-10

Faith and belief are similar, but Belief implies thinking a thing is so for good reasons, while Faith implies believing it in spite of good reasons not to.

..........................
.................................."ₙₒw ᵢ ᵢₛ 𝄴ₒₙ𝆑ᵤₛₑd"

..............scroll over ->Actually, it's pretty good<-
.

[historia]

Christians, What Do You Make Of The Decline Of Your Religion?

The question assumes facts not in evidence.

There are more Christians today than at any time in the past. And Christians constitute a growing percentage of the world's population.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
It is at best a misunderstanding and at worse a deliberate scam, to claim that being a good person will save. A plaster saint of a Sunni will not get saved, unless they believe in Jesus - as the resurrected son of God, not just a 'prophet'. We know this and good works are a shell game.

Of course sinning can lose you salvation. Paul makes that clear and the 'once saved, always saved' lark is a crock. If you deface the books, you can lose your library ticket and don't let any Calvinist or whatever tell you different. These people either do not know or understand their scripture or do not care.

Thus, No; Hitler or any other Christian criminal may lose the grace given by Jesusfaith (provided their Denomination is not too outre). And repentance may do it (if sincere) to gain forgiveness. If there is a real intent not to sin again and the mean it.
...

You seem to think faith and belief are the same, why so?

I think the whole "Jesusfaith" idea is wrong, or not accurate enough, because it is said that only righteous will have eternal life. If person is not righteous, any "belief" or "faith" is not useful for to get the life. People who think empty words are enough, maybe disappointed in the end.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

...the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1 Joh. 3:7-10

Faith and belief are similar, but Belief implies thinking a thing is so for good reasons, while Faith implies believing it in spite of good reasons not to.

..........................
.................................."ₙₒw ᵢ ᵢₛ 𝄴ₒₙ𝆑ᵤₛₑd"

..............scroll over ->Actually, it's pretty good<-
.

Well, belief and faith are obviously similar, being credibility - responses to claims, statements or arguments. One believes, accepts, trusts or credits them.

We could look at definitions, but I make a distinction between belief as more mundane credibility and faith as a more hopeful belief. I have 'Faith my car will start', because I know how a car works - or sometimes doesn't. Faith in Jesus coming again is a hope and trust based on a claim in an old book, and looks like it should have happened within a century of the crucifixion. After 2,000 years the reasons to believe it are rather thin.

On the other hand, 'Faith' in evolution is actually belief on hard evidence. I assure you that back in the 70's -80's there was some questioning of it on evidential grounds and I wanted to know. Animal evolution seemed pretty sound, but I kept an open mind about human evolution, really until Lucy which was something of a 'missing link'. And then DNA confirmation of primate descent made it a credible buy - in.,

At no time, then or now, was it - or anything else - a Faithbased 'Believe - or not' situation.

Now of course there is evidence - based argument for the Bible, which is fine. It's what I'm here for, even though it is faith -based and evidence and logic is fiddled and if necessary dismissed supposedly leaving the Faith - claim as believe or not. This is a different way of crediting claims and does not conform with logic and reason, but Faith, even in the face of evidence against.

I hope that explains how I see the difference, and I use the two somewhat synonymous terms to denote the difference in basis, method and the reasons (or not) to believe.

See also the debate on Truth/Reality. Reality is what is and was, no matter we know it or not getting facts, scientific laws and hypotheses are research -based models of that reality and we know can be wrong or, more often, need revision. Truth in religious terms is what John means (but shrinks from saying out loud) when Jesus talks to Pilate. The Truth is Faith in Jesus. Which is why I use 'truth' to denote one thing and "Truth" to denote the other.